J.W. Carpenter: [00:00:00] I hear a lot. College isn’t for everyone. My issue with that is I hear it from people who went to college and their kids to college. So if these are really, really good jobs, which I think a lot of them are, I think they’re really good jobs. Um, then they should be featured at every single Private school, every single public high school, every place in the country.
J.W. Carpenter: And I find that sometimes we’re concentrating the idea of these jobs in one specific place. And if they’re really good quality jobs, let’s send them everywhere.
Wyatt Smith: We are really grateful to be joined by JW Carpenter, a leader for Prosper and Birmingham based nonprofit focused on [00:01:00] economic empowerment and a longtime leader in the education reform movement. So JW, thank you for being a part of the Untapped with UpSmith
J.W. Carpenter: podcast. Oh, I was thrilled to be asked and thrilled to be in Austin.
Alex Hudgens: Yeah. Quiet. Don’t bury the lead. Who is J. W. to you?
Wyatt Smith: Uh, dear friend, uh, sensei. Yeah.
Alex Hudgens: Yeah.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah.
Alex Hudgens: First boss.
Wyatt Smith: My first boss out of college as a Teach for Honor Corps member. He was the executive director for Alabama, and so I learned it at his knee.
J.W. Carpenter: That’s so cool. Listen, I’m happy to take credit for anything that Wyatt accomplishes, but I think we both know the truth.
Alex Hudgens: I know. Before we started recording, I said, you know, tear him up. Give us the good stuff. Well, you’re like, there’s nothing.
J.W. Carpenter: So Wyatt was supposed to be in the Charter Corps of Alabama But then he got some sort of special Vanderbilt award that allowed him to travel the world for a year and he chose that.
J.W. Carpenter: Weird. Yeah, so Automatically we were questioning his critical thinking. That’s right. But then he came in and did two years and I will say the thing that set Wyatt [00:02:00] apart More than just about anyone I’ve ever worked with but certainly the 22 and 23 year olds. I’ve worked with I have never met a human being more hungry for and better At receiving feedback and why like he is just a constant learning machine And I think that is how he did so much good work for kids to the point where he’s been gone for a while And people still talk about him.
J.W. Carpenter: Yeah, I have nothing bad to say I have lots of bad stuff to say about your brother, Mark.
Wyatt Smith: If he’s listening,
Alex Hudgens: if he’s listening,
Wyatt Smith: I, um, so I, I, I thought it’d be fun to start by sharing some stories about that season of life. Cause certainly, you know, it was really impactful for how I think about leadership and about serving people in a way that can make, um, Movement against a big problem that requires lots of great people working together to do it.
Wyatt Smith: And so, um, so some context setting. So I was a Teach for AmeriCorps member in, in Alabama. I served as a high school history teacher at Carver High School. Go Rams. Go Rams. Um, [00:03:00] the environment we were in had a lot of challenges for sure, but like phenomenal parents, phenomenal, uh, leadership at the school, very focused on making an impact, um, despite a lot of those headwinds.
Wyatt Smith: And I, I reflect on a lot of the things you would talk about, about how important expectations were and having high expectations for people supported by, you know, rigorous, um, scaffolding around that. And I’m, I’m, I’m curious about, you’ve now been in this work for a while. How has your, your viewpoint on, um, adult learning evolved and changed in that time of having watched it play out and, and have challenges and some things that worked really well and everything in between.
J.W. Carpenter: So I’d say the thing that has not changed. is, um, you’ve got two ears and one mouth and use them in proportion and you’ve got to get down to the grassroots and you mentioned it, you’ve got to talk to parents, you’ve got to talk to grandparents, you’ve got to talk to educators, community leaders, uh, and that is Regardless of identity, regardless of privilege, [00:04:00] regardless, regardless of economic background, education level, it takes all of us to really build something excellent, and if you want to impact kids, you better know their world.
J.W. Carpenter: So you need to go to their houses of worship, you need to go to their sporting events, you need to be there, be there, be there, and you need to listen and understand. And it takes a lot of people. a lifetime of understanding, especially if you’re coming from outside the community. That will never change. It should never change.
J.W. Carpenter: And for anyone who is approaching this work differently, I wish you nothing but the best of luck. Two things that have changed, which I think are very exciting. One is learning is different now. I think one of the things that Wyatt did, which was so interesting, was when he was teaching history, he had You had your friends from all over the world, uh, actually, you know, come into school and talk into school.
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, like, so, so you, you know, we’re learning about Egypt. Here’s some Egyptians. Here are folks who are involved in the work there. Uh, that has become easier. Education has become much more democratized. [00:05:00] One of the challenges, a lot of times in working in rural communities, is there are not as many, uh, Now, well, there’s lots of ways now where you can live in a rural community and do a job remotely that is far away.
J.W. Carpenter: You can no longer have to get an education in a physical building. There are lots and lots of ways to earn, uh, to learn, uh, that do not require sort of the, the old model. Um, I’d say the second thing is our definition of education is much broader, you know, Kids and adults are not flocks of birds. Not everyone has to, at 18, we all have to fly off to 2 and 4 year schools.
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, it may be that you never need a 2 or a 4 year degree. Uh, it may be that you want to do something else that doesn’t require a 2 or 4 year degree, and then 5 years later, you want to get a 2 or 4 year degree. Education is a, is a lifelong learning, and what it means to be educated should be a broad definition.
J.W. Carpenter: If you have a PhD in astrophysics, Great. If you know how to rebuild a [00:06:00] car engine, great. There are lots of different ways to be educated and live in the world. And I think we have a much broader concept of that. And, uh, uh, my hope is, is that, uh, both our education, uh, and our employers catch up to that idea.
J.W. Carpenter: Cause I think there is some work that we can be doing in both on both of those fronts. Long answer.
Alex Hudgens: Great answer. Perfect for the
J.W. Carpenter: podcast format. You want nice, long, uninterrupted
Alex Hudgens: answers. We need an hour, at least.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah. So you and Alex have some things in common. Okay.
Alex Hudgens: Well, yeah. I saw your Um, like away email?
Alex Hudgens: Yeah, you have the most creative and extensive out of office email that I’ve ever seen. Oh, thank you. But I read it because I was entertained.
J.W. Carpenter: Excellent.
Alex Hudgens: And I find out that we are St. Louis Cardinals fans.
J.W. Carpenter: I am a fourth generation St. Louis Cardinal fan.
Alex Hudgens: Let’s go. I’m from St. Louis.
J.W. Carpenter: Outstanding. One of the greatest.
J.W. Carpenter: Are you from St.
Alex Hudgens: Louis?
J.W. Carpenter: No, I’m not. My father is from Northwest Missouri, grew up on a soybean farm. So, that’s something Wyatt and my dad have in common.
Alex Hudgens: Where in Northwest Missouri?
J.W. Carpenter: He [00:07:00] was in St. Joe’s, a little town called Burlington Junction. The soybean farm continues to operate today.
Alex Hudgens: I love it.
J.W. Carpenter: Yes. So, that’s where he learned to swear.
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, is listening to his grandfather, uh, listen to the Cardinals. I love
Alex Hudgens: it. Well, go Cards. Go Cards. We’re already friends.
J.W. Carpenter: Outstanding. It’s the greatest institution in professional baseball.
Alex Hudgens: And we’ve got a door coming. So, White and I know each other from Vanderbilt. Sonny Gray is now a Cardinal.
J.W. Carpenter: Sonny Gray is not just a Cardinal, he is the opening day starter.
Alex Hudgens: Sonny, if you’re watching this right now, go Doors and go Cards. I
J.W. Carpenter: hope you pitch in Birmingham. I hope you’re pitching in Birmingham when they come.
Wyatt Smith: That’s right. Well, um, share for those not familiar with Prosper, the mission and what you’re working on in Birmingham.
J.W. Carpenter: Yeah, you bet. So Prosper is trying to build the most thriving and inclusive economy in the Southeast.
J.W. Carpenter: So pretty broad. Our specific role in that is how do we have an aligned. Inclusive, measurable, and funded job creation, job preparation, and job access strategy. We are [00:08:00] not the doers. We want to make sure that all of the doers are working collectively and aligned toward a common measurable goal or goals that they have identified.
J.W. Carpenter: the funding they need and the work they are doing are inclusive with a specific focus on how we’re including our black population, how we’re including women, and how we’re including an increasingly large latino hispanic population.
Alex Hudgens: Say the like very powerful something something something southeast say it again.
J.W. Carpenter: The most thriving and inclusive economy in the Southeast.
Alex Hudgens: I love it.
J.W. Carpenter: Yeah. Well, I believe it is. It is absolutely achievable, especially if we have a long term data driven view. Yep. What are the metrics that matter most? Yeah. So. So, uh, this is a broad answer, uh, so, I mean, the thing that we’re looking at, uh, as an indicator is median income, right?
J.W. Carpenter: So, median income, not just in the aggregate, but disaggregated by race and by gender. Why are we looking at that? One, uh, all of the people who are doing, uh, economic development research tells us this number is a pretty good [00:09:00] indicator. If you’re moving northeast on the graph, you’re doing pretty well.
J.W. Carpenter: Second is, everybody understands it. So unless you are some one of the select few people that are inheriting generational wealth and cheers to you, the first place you’re going to get to earn money is income. And so we can communicate that people understand that if income is going up, that’s a good thing.
J.W. Carpenter: But we’re also looking at labor force participation rate. We’re looking at the number of people who get two and four year degrees and professional certifications that lead to quality jobs. And we’re looking at the number of quality jobs are created. Now, these are macro, right? And if we had been doing every single thing, right.
J.W. Carpenter: in March of 2020, it would not have mattered. All of those numbers would have gone in the tank, but they’re good indicators, especially if you compare our progress across cities. But with lots of different individual programs that we’re investing in, we’re looking at shorter term, more controllable metrics.
J.W. Carpenter: So for example, if we were supporting small businesses and black owned businesses, we’re looking at revenue growth. We’re looking at job growth. Quite frankly, we’re looking, do you exist in 12 months? Are you a [00:10:00] going concern? And we’re looking at the number of black owned businesses. that are growing, but also how many of them are not solo proprietorships.
J.W. Carpenter: We have a, we have a low number of black owned businesses and a disproportionate number that are solo proprietorships. We want to see those numbers move. That is more within our control.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah. You know, it’s really interesting that, uh, unemployment rate right now is as low as it’s been in a very long time.
Wyatt Smith: So sub 4%. But at the same time, labor force participation has been somewhat stuck. National numbers are in the low sixties. I’m sure Birmingham is kind of in that, in that are
J.W. Carpenter: among the lowest in the country.
Wyatt Smith: Okay. How do you make sense of it? How do you make sense of why labor force participation remains relatively low while it’s such a tight job market?
J.W. Carpenter: Well, it’s interesting because you see some encouraging national numbers that like the bounce back. But in our community, I mean, I’m, Um, I’m going to parrot what I read, but also what I experience, right? We’ve just had a number of people who have just dropped out of the labor force market. So, to some degree, right?
J.W. Carpenter: This is a math [00:11:00] problem that’s hard to solve. We have a disproportionately large group of people Who are nearing retirement or retiring faster because of the pandemic. And then we don’t have that same number coming up behind them. So it’s a difficult math problem to one degree. And then the second degree is we have a lot of, uh, people who have dropped out of the labor market.
J.W. Carpenter: They are no longer searching for work or they’re doing. gig work that doesn’t end up getting counted as part of that. So I would say that while our unemployment number, I say, is artificially low, um, our labor force participation rate may be a little low because we still quite haven’t figured out how to calculate it with all of this new gig work.
Wyatt Smith: We, we see something similar insofar as, you know, there’s probably 15 million people in the country who are out of the labor force, want to get back in operating in sort of a gray zone of they’re, they’re generating. Income, but it’s not through W two income. Um, I’m curious if [00:12:00] there’s a story of a person that you’ve worked with recently or that you are aware of in the brand community who.
Wyatt Smith: Is a bit of a illustrative case of this, um, or someone that you’ve seen be successful in seeking job training programs who had the aspiration and needed help to get there in a way that could help to tell about a bigger story.
J.W. Carpenter: So we ran a pilot program, uh, last year with community health workers and we work with, uh, UAB.
J.W. Carpenter: We work with some other partners to get our folks. It was a 12 week bootcamp and we combined two things. One was community health worker skills. With through and an internship, but also a data skills as well. And so we had a number of folks, it was a very small pilot, I think 20 people, and we had a number of people who got, ended up getting family sustaining wage health care jobs from that through this 12 week program.
J.W. Carpenter: Now the community health worker Headline is a little bit of a misnomer because some of them went into community health work, but it turns out the skill sets behind that is Ended up [00:13:00] making, making sense for maybe, uh, doing customer service, uh, or call centers or even human resources. Uh, and so it was exciting to see how that worked and we’re going to have a much larger, uh, idea because we are a good jobs grant recipient.
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, we’re, we have 11 million. We’re going to be training over a thousand folks into family sustaining wage, healthcare jobs over the next couple of years, number of different partners, city of Birmingham, Mayor Woodfin deserve a lot of credit for getting that. And I’ll have much better answers in the next couple of years.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah,
Alex Hudgens: that’s really exciting.
Wyatt Smith: I think about people that I’ve observed who are really hard workers, but the friction in job transitions is really challenging to navigate. And particularly if training in of itself doesn’t solve a problem, if it doesn’t have some attachment to wage. And so what has worked really well are roles that are through paid apprenticeships where you’re, you are an employee of the firm that is also training you and that that leads to much higher retention numbers because you can also forward plan.[00:14:00]
Wyatt Smith: It’s not a question of like, maybe I’ll get a better job. I start with it. And so I’m curious if there are examples that you’ve seen in healthcare and other areas where that has proven true and how that might shape design of these upscaling programs in a way to make them more effective.
J.W. Carpenter: Yeah, so we, we have a large, um.
J.W. Carpenter: Advanced manufacturing base in in the state of Alabama. We make a whole heck of a lot of stuff, right? And so it was interesting. I’ve talked to some of those folks who have typically been using staffing firms, uh, more traditional staffing firms and what they are finding is that Um, when they do better when folks are coming in and they are doing a lot of training in house, uh, with, you know, great partners who can do the training, but they’re doing that training in house.
J.W. Carpenter: These folks are their employees. They’re built into the culture. And sometimes if folks are coming in from the outside, it’s not as successful. That is what they are founding. And so they’re trying to build, [00:15:00] uh, they’re trying to build those models. I would say one example of something that I’ve seen that has been really inspiring is work that the Hispanic interest coalition of Alabama has done with Alabama power.
J.W. Carpenter: So I think Hispanic interest coalition of Alabama. has a great network of Latino Hispanic workers. They have great cultural competency. Alabama Power can is excellent at the training piece. And so how we can make sure that folks get access to these great training programs. And then when they’re in there, become inclusive.
J.W. Carpenter: And I think that’s an even better example of some of the things. One of the things that I’ve seen, I think Alabama Power is just really, really good at training people and keeping people. And this is all sorts of roles. Is it in frontline? So I don’t, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s probably all sorts of different roles.
J.W. Carpenter: I imagine frontline roles are where they have the biggest need, but they’ve just done an excellent job. They’ve also done a great partnership with the IBEW, um, and, and their training program. And the other thing that I think is inspiring, having gone to their training facility, which they built in [00:16:00] Calera.
J.W. Carpenter: Um, is a lot of their teachers are not necessarily your quintessential teachers. These are folks who don’t have a necessarily a teaching degree, but they, they are the most passionate, most inspiring teachers I may have ever been around because they were in the industry for years. And whereas you taught history and I taught math and the margin for error was a little bit different than when you’re treating someone behind electricity.
J.W. Carpenter: And so it’s like we, we better get this right. And it was really inspiring to spend time with them. And again, like, as we think about education trends, we should be thinking about, you know, Who are teachers are as well, right? I think traditional training and teachers there. There’s a lot of great, great people that come through that, but these guys don’t have teaching degrees.
J.W. Carpenter: And I will tell you, if you can find a better group of more passionate teachers, I don’t know where they are. Yeah.
Wyatt Smith: There’s a lot of subject matter expertise there that comes across. A hundred percent. And then the passion for doing it safely. Yep. Doing it in a way that’s going to make an impact, serve people well.
Wyatt Smith: One of the things that jumps out for me is like making dollars flexible so that you could reimburse Alabama Power or another entity [00:17:00] which is creating that job and investing in that program. Have you seen examples of Flexible funding that helps to prove a case at a, at a micro level that we could scale up more.
J.W. Carpenter: So I, so, so I’d say I’ll give, so, um, I think this massive federal investment that has been made and that, uh, through good jobs and through other different federal programs over the last three or four years that have landed not just in Birmingham, but in communities that typically haven’t received those, I think that has been, Uh, really inspiring about what’s possible and letting use the using those dollars for innovative and creative ways to get people into the workforce.
J.W. Carpenter: I think that’s a positive example. I think there are more traditional programs like WIOA. Uh, that could use a rethink and a reboot, uh, getting the WIOA dollars applied to innovative programs can be very challenging and bureaucratic. Um, and it may be that other cities and states have, have done really well there.
J.W. Carpenter: I think we’ve struggled with that. I think that’s a universal challenge. Okay. Yeah. So you struggle with that. So it’s, it’s the [00:18:00] best of intentions, but you’re layering bureaucracy on bureaucracy and bureaucracy and you’re standing, uh, uh, You’re putting process over purpose. Uh, I’ll give you an example in the community health worker program You know We were trying to get those dollars to help sub supplement the program the burden on the people in our program was so much in Terms of filling out paperwork and all that stuff that it was like the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze We weren’t gonna make our people do it and it was gonna hurt retention.
Wyatt Smith: That’s right. So a similar experience we had and Again people with good intention for sure But because there is a very formulaic process for how you determine eligibility for a Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act funded program, or WIOA funded program, there’s a little bit of a tail wagging the dog dynamic that happens where the well intentioned person in charge of administering says, well, show me the 1040 that this person had the last three years.
Wyatt Smith: I’m like, well, there’s not one. And they’re like, well, you need that because there’s a box to check that shows. And was this a COVID displaced worker? And is there a way to [00:19:00] substantiate that that happened? Because then I can form this other eligibility, um, compliance driven checkbox. And then in the whole meantime, you’re like, we got to start this program like next Tuesday.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah. And like, well, that’s not going to happen. We need more time. And that individual is operating in a dynamic environment. They’ve got bills to pay. The rent’s come and due. There’s a car note. And so hanging around until we’ve lined up all the paperwork is not always doable. Yeah. And that’s a shame because the intent of that program was to help that person who was a real human being standing in front of the opportunity to be successful and it’s missed.
J.W. Carpenter: Yeah, I think that’s right. And I think that, um, you know, one of the challenges has been in Birmingham and I see a lot of progress here is we’ve really had a provider driven workforce system. Yeah. And so whatever are, whatever the different training programs, whether they’re traditional colleges or. Uh, to your schools or, or, you know, just the shops that train people, whatever they produce, it wasn’t necessarily aligned to what employers [00:20:00] need, but just as if not more importantly, it wasn’t necessarily aligned to the needs and wants of our unemployed and underemployed.
J.W. Carpenter: We were not really, not just meeting basic needs like childcare and paying them for training and things like that. Um, but just really even, you know, getting into understand where they’re coming from, uh, how they, what jobs they want to do, you know, what they need in order to learn the different learning styles.
J.W. Carpenter: And I think unlocking that, uh, is a real priority for any employer driven workforce system. If
Wyatt Smith: you are listening right now as an employer and you would love to, you Get involved or participate in this in some way, but you’re not sure where to start or you’ve tried before and been frustrated because it was tough to navigate what advice would you have for that listener?
J.W. Carpenter: Um, uh, so if so, I’d say a couple of different things. So number one, there is probably in whatever community that you’re in, some group that is charged with workforce, uh, [00:21:00] whether it’s organization or implementation, uh, you need to reach out to them. Um, I’d say the second thing is, uh, examine your own best practices.
J.W. Carpenter: Look at the number of jobs that you have that require two and four year degrees. Do they need them? Third is there, um, you know, the call is often coming from inside the house. And what I mean by that is. A lot of your labor force challenges are on the first band right now of your organization. And so how are you, one, making sure those are really, really good jobs?
J.W. Carpenter: And second, how are you pulling from your pool and your most talented folks in those first band to move them up? How are you creating those different, uh, pathways within your organization? That’s another piece of making it a quality job. So I think there is some external work that you can be doing, uh, but internally, I think there are two or three different steps that you can take to, to make a lot of stuff happen for you real fast.
Alex Hudgens: It’s good. It’s all good. [00:22:00] I have a question about, you, you’re a storyteller, I can tell. Uh huh. And I like it. Yes. I do storytelling. That’s a nice way to say it. No, it’s storytelling, and I think that that’s, necessary in so much of what we’re up to, and that’s what I do at UpSmith specifically, is how do we get, you know, more young people interested in the trades?
Alex Hudgens: How do we highlight the dignity that’s inherent in the trades and all of this? How do we do that? What are your ideas for what we can be doing, you know? On the marketing end of things, if you will, to fix some of this.
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, well, I doubt I’m going to say anything that you haven’t thought of, but number one, a kid can’t be what they can’t see.
J.W. Carpenter: And so kids deserve to order off the whole menu, right? And a lot. And so what are we showing to kids in middle school? High school to broaden their idea of what is going on And I think second is that I hear a lot college isn’t for everyone my issue with that is I hear it from people who went To college and [00:23:00] their kids to college so if these are really really good jobs, which I think a lot of them are I think they’re really good jobs Then they should be featured at every single private school, every single public high school, every place in the country.
J.W. Carpenter: And I find that sometimes we’re concentrating the idea of these jobs in one specific place. And if they’re really good quality jobs, let’s send them everywhere and let’s do that piece of it. So how are we democratizing this, uh, across all of our institutions where, um, our kids are? Uh, and then the third is.
J.W. Carpenter: In addition, like, as part of telling them about these things, and, you know, we tend to focus on salaries, which is important, it’s like, uh, get them in the mix. Take them out, you know, take them physically out, have them meet, uh, get out of the way, too. Like, a lot of times I’m an intermediary. Get them to talk to the people doing the jobs.
J.W. Carpenter: No one will sell the job better than the people doing the job. And if it’s not a really good [00:24:00] job, they’re not going to sell it well, and that’s a different conversation. But a lot of times these are really good jobs. The folks doing them are really passionate about it, and they’re going to connect to a kid.
J.W. Carpenter: Way faster than some intermediary like me. So those are a couple different things that, uh, that I would suggest, but the other thing is you should, and you’re already doing this, is, you know, talk to your target audience and I’m not it.
Alex Hudgens: No, that’s really, that’s great. And I mean, I like what I do. And I, when we were welding in Alabama, I was like, this is so cool.
Alex Hudgens: And I’m just doing this little thing terribly, but the women who were teaching me how to do it. Yeah. We’re working on ships for the military, I think, like, really important work, and it’s a, I don’t know, people who work with their minds rest with their hands and all of that, I’m like, I think more of us should be resting with our hands, working with our hands, but we just don’t, I’ve never welded before, till I was the ripe old age of, uh, 32 so
J.W. Carpenter: you missed out
Alex Hudgens: no it’s a good
Wyatt Smith: story, and I think just to build that story out more sweet We hosted [00:25:00] a team off site for our company in Alabama And we flip everybody in Birmingham and they went out to roll West, Alabama where where I’m from and We were hosted by the folks at lavender incorporated Which is a family owned business that is based in Aliceville it’s been around for a very long time but they’re very focused on mechanical contracting.
Wyatt Smith: They built, um, the piping that would go inside a lot of industrial assets across the country. And they’re the largest employer in Dickens County, my home County. And so we had the chance to bring our team to talk to the folks that helped to create paid apprenticeships and and opportunities for people in the first rung to then be up really mobile inside the company and then the the team had a chance to go do some welding and Appreciate the complexity of doing it well, but our welding instructors were
Alex Hudgens: women
Wyatt Smith: a couple young women Who were extraordinarily?
Wyatt Smith: Gifted in their attention to detail and a lot of just really minute Actions that are required to be a precision welder that they had mastered [00:26:00] And it was, uh, personality driven. There were a lot of like mindsets and behavior markers that made them excellent welders. And I think that was a very useful experience for our team because skills based hiring is at the core of one of the comments that you made a minute ago around rethinking, um, degrees and other markers that may not be the most explanatory about what’s going to lead to success.
Wyatt Smith: And so we think often about how that is a signal for the types of competencies that would lead to someone being extraordinarily successful. for themselves and for their employer. And that becomes something to build on too. I think technology enables you to do it in a different way, because you can get all this data that didn’t exist even three or four years ago.
J.W. Carpenter: I couldn’t agree more. And one of the, I’m going to brag on Alabama for a second, uh, because there’s work being done to create these digital wallets. Yeah. And I think the digital wallet is so important. I mean, we all have, you know, resumes and whatever else. And the resumes capture to some, if they’re well written, capture to some degree our accomplishments and experiences.
J.W. Carpenter: But there are so many. [00:27:00] skills that folks have that it is incredibly, you know, if business is not done and hiring is not done via a resume or it’s incredibly difficult to capture these skills via a resume. And I think the digital wallet, which is going to follow people around is going to make. Uh, it’s going to, is, is going to really change opportunities for folks, but it’s also going to change the way that employers see these skills.
J.W. Carpenter: It is no longer you went to this university, which is still important. University education is really good, but really like digging down. It’s like, look at what this person can do.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah.
J.W. Carpenter: And I, and look at what this person knows how to do. And I think the digital wallet. Uh, any, uh, I’m proud of our state for doing it and I think employers are going to start embracing it.
J.W. Carpenter: And in a moment that should be unbelievable for labor and is an unbelievable moment for labor is going to be a a great tool for everyone to use to get people, uh, working and earning and growing their families and their communities. It’s just, it’s very exciting. I’m proud of our state for doing it.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah, that’s [00:28:00] awesome.
Wyatt Smith: Let’s, let’s dig in on Alabama a bit. So you are here in Austin at South by Southwest to evangelize about all the things happening in the magic city. Um, share with us about what’s going on.
Alex Hudgens: Can we call it BHAM?
Wyatt Smith: Uh, sure. Absolutely. Like,
Alex Hudgens: that’s cool? Absolutely. Or that’s like outsiders doing this thing? Yeah, it’s
J.W. Carpenter: not like when you say San Fran and everyone’s like, please get out of here.
J.W. Carpenter: That’s why I worry, because I know this. It’s a good question. I appreciate you seeking comprehension. BHAM. So, uh, BHAM is good. Okay. So, so to me, I think Birmingham is not often on the minds, uh, nationally. Um, or, uh, we dug ourselves a hole a little bit, reputation wise. Um, and I think what I want to make sure that we’re doing is a few different things.
J.W. Carpenter: One is we’re storytelling about where Birmingham is. And I think the place where Birmingham is right now is we are aligned at the grass tips, we’re aligned at the grass roots, we’re aligned at corporate, we’re aligned at higher ed, we’re aligned in government. toward building the most inclusive and thriving economy in the Southeast.
J.W. Carpenter: It is a place that is big enough to matter and small enough to move. You’ve got UAB, which is a major [00:29:00] public hospital. It is a major research institution. If you are doing something in health tech, in biotech, in healthcare, this is a place where there is sophisticated, incredible work going on. Same with advanced manufacturing.
J.W. Carpenter: But if you come and you need to meet with the major players in, you can do that very quickly. That’s an exciting place. If you really want to build, not just your company and not connect, not just connect with some of the top players, but really be part of building a city that is incredible. And so that storytelling is really important.
J.W. Carpenter: The second thing is most ideas have the same thing in common as they’re not mine. There are great, incredible things going on all over the country. Startups like yours, uh, initiatives at the city level, at the state level all over. And we, as, as Randall Woodfin, our mayor says, great mayor steel. And we are going to steal great ideas and we want to bring them to Birmingham, but we also want to bring the companies and the founders to Birmingham and say, this is your sandbox.
J.W. Carpenter: You can play here. You can grow here. That is what we are doing with our health tech [00:30:00] accelerator. That is what Techstars is doing with the energy accelerator. That is what the depot is doing. But there’s so much going on there. And third is if we look at what we’re trying to do, You know, the history of Birmingham in many ways is tragic.
J.W. Carpenter: We did a, we did such terrible, awful things to our black community. There is, and, and, and it reson, it reverberates to this day. But the other story of Birmingham is the greatest innovators we’ve ever had are pastors, and kids, and business owners who stood up against this tragedy. unbelievable system that was denying and destroying and murdering them in a lot of ways, and they won, and they changed the world, but we did not quite close that opportunity gap, and that is what we are doing now, except everybody is aligned to close the opportunity gap, and I want to make sure that anyone who wants to come on board comes on board, because while it was the grassroots in Alabama and all over the South that changed the world, They needed a lot of [00:31:00] help from national leaders and we want that national investment.
J.W. Carpenter: We want those national ideas We want those national partnerships and the reason we come in heavy at South by Southwest and other places to visit other cities Is to share and is to learn and to build those partnerships.
Alex Hudgens: That’s so cool. So you’re literally here pitching BHAM.
J.W. Carpenter: 100 percent I think it is.
J.W. Carpenter: That’s so cool. I think the greatest startup in Alabama is the city of Birmingham
Alex Hudgens: Do you like the it’s a mini Nashville comparison? You If yes, why? If no?
J.W. Carpenter: I think there is a lot to learn from Nashville. I think there is a lot to learn from a lot of the different cities in the southeast. And I feel like we have our own identity.
J.W. Carpenter: I feel like you can get a lot of things right now in Birmingham that you can’t get in Nashville. But the idea that we can’t learn from these other cities, and we don’t want to adopt some of the things that they’ve done, to me is just closed minded nonsense.
Alex Hudgens: Alright, so as a current Manhattanite,
J.W. Carpenter: Yes.
Alex Hudgens: Why shall I come to Birmingham?
Alex Hudgens: Birmingham.
J.W. Carpenter: Um, You’ve
Alex Hudgens: sold, you’ve done, again, Storyteller, knew it, [00:32:00] from Jump. You’ve done very well, but I need like brass tacks, like why? Okay, so
J.W. Carpenter: I can give you some very practical things. Number one, it is a whole heck of a lot less expensive. Yeah, well, that’s everywhere
Alex Hudgens: though.
J.W. Carpenter: That is true, but it is especially true there.
J.W. Carpenter: Second, uh, there’s a theory about cities that I heard. It’s really cool when you’re a teenager. It’s really cool when you’re a little kid. I’d say Birmingham’s really cool when you’re a little kid. I’m a parent of a soon to be nine, soon to be eleven year old. This is a wonderful place to raise a child, wonderful place to raise a child, but that could be true of a lot of different places.
J.W. Carpenter: To me, where you want to go to, why you want to go to Birmingham, big enough to matter, small enough to move. Do you want to be part, do you want to do a job or do you want to be part of building something? New York City is an unbelievable place. I was just there with my kids, Martin Luther King Day, anyone done like New York City?
J.W. Carpenter: I don’t get it. I love it. But New York City is going to be okay. Let’s get everybody who’s ever breathed on the South. Who would consider the South, to move back to the South, and let’s build, and let’s make this [00:33:00] an unbelievable place. An unbelievable story, and that only happens if we have lots of great, talented people who are already there getting opportunities, and we’re bringing in a lot of other talented people.
J.W. Carpenter: I will quote my non cousin, our mutual friend, Josh Carpenter, to say, The best version of America has a great Birmingham in it. But if you want Birmingham to grow, we need all, not just the talented people we got now, we need talented people to come. And I promise you get to the front of the line and you’re going to build a great city in addition to having a great life.
Alex Hudgens: To be clear, Wyatt offered me a green egg smoker to move to Dallas and you just sold it way better.
J.W. Carpenter: Oh, I
Alex Hudgens: forgot. And I want the green egg smokers.
J.W. Carpenter: There was more involved to the year. And a year of free exotic meats. I will. I will. That’s
Alex Hudgens: great. I love that though. I mean, be a builder is something we say all the time.
Alex Hudgens: We will invest in your relocation.
Wyatt Smith: We will invest in your relocation to Birmingham. 100%. Yeah, add that in.
Alex Hudgens: Still the green eggs? That’s still on the table? It will happen. It will happen. I love the idea of come build something instead of just, [00:34:00] you know, I thrive on the energy of Manhattan, but I think it’s because.
Alex Hudgens: I am building things in other ways. So the idea of building a city is kind of cool.
J.W. Carpenter: And it is great to bring people who’ve, who’ve experienced other things and lived in other cities because they’re bringing all that learning, bringing all that energy, bringing all that urgency to mix with what is already happening there.
J.W. Carpenter: That is how our city is going to be dynamic and grow.
Alex Hudgens: I love it.
Wyatt Smith: Well said. We would love to do some lightning round questions. Great. Nothing. I do. There’s nothing I do worse than like the answers.
Alex Hudgens: Very fast on our, on our show. Just so you know, first things first, book recommendations can really take this anywhere.
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, so, so I would say, uh, uh, I’ll give you a fiction, nonfiction, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow. Yes. It is a wonderful book. I couldn’t put it down. It just, it spoke to me and, and great. If you ever want to read about what, like a real platonic. But Loving Friendship is, over years, it is [00:35:00] just, it’s a beautiful book.
J.W. Carpenter: Um, I’m reading The Good Job Strategy. Let’s go. Uh, and The Good Job Strategy was recommended to me, um, uh, by some real smart folks in D. C. and it has proven to be really an exciting
Wyatt Smith: read. Yeah, stand up, Tom. Mm hmm. Yeah. Professor at MIT. Very brilliant person. Yes. For sure.
Alex Hudgens: That was pretty fast. Okay, podcast recommendations besides this one.
J.W. Carpenter: I don’t listen to anyone except this one, but, uh, great, Derek Thompson, I think has it has incredible guests and he’s an excellent, uh, not just explainer, but he’s so interested. And so I learn a lot from listening to Eric Thompson.
Wyatt Smith: If you could go back in time and give advice to your younger self, what would you tell that person?
J.W. Carpenter: Uh, have a long view. Uh, I, I remember leaving, um, um, undergrad and then I went to Teach for America and at Teach for America I’d done it for two years and I was like, I gotta get to law school. Why? Why? Why do, why do I need to go to law school right away? Why couldn’t I stay a third year? Why couldn’t I [00:36:00] stay a fourth year?
J.W. Carpenter: But I, I think it was Salil Bloom. I’m going to give him credit that, uh, if every 10 years you should look there, you should look back at yourself, wherever you are and look back 10 years and cringe a little, and I do, and that’s because you’re growing. And so I guess part of the advice would be, it’s like, you’re going to screw a bunch of stuff up, but you can still land.
J.W. Carpenter: Okay. If you’re growing.
Alex Hudgens: That’s good. What’s your. I struggle with the word advice, but what is your general advice to people out there listening, not necessarily younger, but you know, our audience, we’ve got a lot of, let’s say, business owners who want to do more of what you’re doing in Birmingham, but are going to maybe stay where they are.
Alex Hudgens: How did you do it? What is your advice for getting everyone on board like that?
J.W. Carpenter: So what I would say is, is that like anything, it is a total team effort. It is nonlinear. It is littered with mistakes. And you just have to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it. The people who inspire me are folks like a Mashonda Taylor, who’s been at Woodlawn [00:37:00] United for A decade plus and just keeps plowing away and plowing away and plowing away and then big things happen You’re like, how’d you do that?
J.W. Carpenter: It’s like because I took 10 years. I took some time I really dug in but use your ears and mouth and community in use your ears and mouth in proportion There’s so much to learn and you know, I just go back to what I first said What I learned from Wyatt, honestly, it’s true. I learned you, you will learn from anyone just because you’re, you’re 10 years older does not mean that you cannot learn you.
J.W. Carpenter: I’m learning from people around me all the time from all walks of life does not matter who they are, what their education is, how old they are, anything at all. There’s always learning to be done. If you’re soliciting feedback, if you’re open to feedback, if you don’t take it personally, you can constantly learn.
J.W. Carpenter: And I think that’s something why it exhibited from day one, which is why he was one of four teachers selected as the, uh, for the Sulamon award, which is teacher of the year during his second year as a core member. It
Wyatt Smith: was a team effort. Uh, we are grateful to you coming on board for sharing the vision around what you’re building with prosper, for [00:38:00] giving us all a read on the place that’s Small enough to matter and big enough to move.
Wyatt Smith: Um, we, we all also want to say thank you for giving us a chance to be a part of what’s going on in Alabama. JW has been really encouraging for our team to make an impact there and we’re excited to continue working on that, on that vision.
J.W. Carpenter: I’m thrilled to have you. I’d be, I just think, uh, Alabama with UpSmith will be a better Alabama faster.
J.W. Carpenter: And I’d be remiss if I said, didn’t think. My board for creating this organization and giving me the opportunity to lead it. It’s their vision and they have plenty of other stuff to do. And for them to be committed to this, to launch this organization and committed over the longterm, uh, it fires me up to work hard and I’m just grateful to them.
Alex Hudgens: Mm.
J.W. Carpenter: Awesome. Thank you.
Wyatt Smith: That’s so good.
