Ep. 102: Bridging the Skilled Trades Gap with Katherine Boyle, General Partner Andreessen Horowitz
Katherine Boyle: [00:00:00] It really is a question of how do we make sure that in the next 10 years, we’re bringing more people into these trades or making these jobs really fruitful because if you were not able to machine the parts that are needed to go into an F 35 or to go into a SpaceX rocket, like there is a huge Huge problem.
So we have to start really thinking about that.
Wyatt Smith: Welcome to Untapped with UpSmith, a show diving into ideas to build the future. I’m Wyatt Smith, founder and CEO of UpSmith.
Alex Hudgens: And I’m Alex Hudgens, UpSmith’s resident storyteller. On Untapped, you’re getting real talk and real help. We’re bringing you industry experts and inviting guests on to share perspectives on what they’re building.
We’ll even workshop their business challenges in real time. Expect practical advice, inspiring ideas, and even some fun. We promise
Wyatt Smith: ideas build the future and the future is bright. It’s time for untapped with
Katherine Boyle: UpSmith.[00:01:00]
Wyatt Smith: Hey, welcome to untapped with UpSmith. I’m really excited to be joined today by Katherine Boyle, a general partner at Andreessen Horowitz and leader of the American Dynamism platform. Katherine, welcome. It’s
Katherine Boyle: so great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Wyatt Smith: We are thrilled to have you aboard on our show here. We talk about big challenges facing the American labor front, and certainly the ones that you have thought a lot about and have a good perspective on as a leader, as an investor, but, you know, as also somebody that’s very committed to promoting American competitiveness.
And so we’re just grateful to have you aboard. It’s great to be
Katherine Boyle: a part of the
Wyatt Smith: journey. Absolutely. So we’d love to start just by learning more about your story growing up and not everybody. Maybe you’re aware that, um, you had some early formative experiences far from the glitz and glamour of the coastal cities, and it’d be fun [00:02:00] to hear about that.
Katherine Boyle: Yeah, yeah, so I grew up, I grew up in Gainesville, Florida, um, so it was a football town, uh, through and through, um, and, and, yes, very, very much so. And, uh, and, and what I’d say is, you know, I, I, in some ways I, I look back on, on my childhood and I think there’s something to be said for growing up in a boring place.
Um, I, I have lots of memories of being bored when I was a kid and like boredom is something that children don’t have very much of now. But boredom leads to so many great things in terms of tinkering and curiosity and learning how things work and learning how things work around the house and in the yard.
And uh, Wyatt, I know you have a similar experience of growing up on a farm. And so, you know, it’s, I didn’t grow up on a farm, but I grew up in, in, I’d say a culture where boredom was allowed. And that allowed for tons of curiosity and really, you know, allowing, sort of, I was allowed to follow my passions in many ways.
And one of those passions was, was politics, frankly. I got very interested in national security and politics when I was growing up. Um, you know, I was in high school, um, on September [00:03:00] 11th, probably one of the most, you know, formative memories, um, which, which made me sort of reconsider, like, what does it mean to be an American?
What does it mean to, to be? Public servant, what does it mean to really help your country out with what it needs? Um, and that led me to, to go to school in Washington, D. C. I studied politics, political philosophy. Really thought I was going to be in D. C. forever. Um, and had sort of what I would call the, I ended up working at the Washington Post.
Um, and had sort of what a lot of people go through in Washington, D. C., which is that they realize in some ways that if you want to solve real problems for America, oftentimes that means leaving. Um, so, so, uh, and, and at the time that I was living in, in Washington, I became somewhat enamored with everything that was happening on the West Coast.
It became very clear that there was this whole other culture of building technology products. Um, on the West Coast for, for things that were, you know, it was sort of just this, it seemed like this magical place that was called California. And so I decided to move out and, and, and kind of check out what all this tech was about.
And when I moved out to Silicon Valley, it was a really interesting culture shock because all I had really [00:04:00] known in my adult life since, since, you know, leaving home was kind of the priorities of Washington, the priorities of, of what, you know, when we talk about sort of like, what is, what are the civic needs?
For everyone in this country, that’s something that’s top of mind for Washington. And when I moved out to Silicon Valley, it was a massive culture shock because people were, were focused on these very discreet technical problems and they never talked about politics and they never really thought about policy and they never really thought about, you know, those big problems.
And it was a really big sort of moment, kind of an aha moment, where I thought, wow, like the bridge between the things that Washington cares about. Upscaling, national security, defense, you know, housing, education, these big problems were not as, they weren’t the focal point, um, of what was happening, you know, 10 years ago in Silicon Valley.
And I think one of the greatest joys and surprises has been that that has changed dramatically. You know, when I first moved to Silicon Valley, if you had talked about defense, national security and in public, people would have thought you were a little crazy. Like what are you doing out here? Like we don’t care about that stuff.
Um, and it really has become sort of a focal point of our practice, which we’ve named American Dynamism, which is companies [00:05:00] that serve the national interest. And you know, it is something that is now something that founders think, think often about how, how do we build companies and products and how do we use technology to support all citizens?
Well said.
Wyatt Smith: Well said. You’ve had a really fantastic journey and I’m curious going back to being in a boring place as a kid, uh, formative experiences. Are there things that stand out to you as like really shaping your path? In going this, this route you’ve taken?
Katherine Boyle: Yeah, I mean, I, so I am a big believer, and I know we’re, we’re, Wyatt and I are in similar boats, in that we have young children.
Um, and so I am a big believer that the family shapes your life. Um, there’s no institution more important than the family. Um, how you come through struggles with your family, your past history matter, the, the way that you interact with your family. And so I’d say like, in terms of like the most formative thing, I just, I grew up with Extraordinary parents.
We spent a lot of time together. Um, I grew up in a big family, um, but we were really close. Um, and it’s interesting, like the way that I’ve chosen to raise my kids now, I’ve talked a lot about this, is that we live in a [00:06:00] multi generational household. I grew up in a multi generational household. My grandparents took care of me.
My grand, or my mother takes care of my sons. And I think like, you know, when I think of like, People can have, you know, all sorts of experiences in their childhood, but when you actually think about, like, the thing that really makes you who you are, teaches you character, teaches you grit, teaches you, uh, perseverance, like, that really comes from the family.
So, I can’t point to, like, one experience or something, but I just constantly think about how blessed I am to have had such a close family unit. And a family that, you know, like, I come from a family of all sorts of different, you know, trades, and my grandfather drove a truck his entire life. You know, like, so, like, the people who raised me, I think, you know, they were hardworking people who taught me grit and perseverance, um, but really, the most important thing was, like, at the end of the day, we all came together, sat down at the dinner table, which my mother and grandmother cooked, and, like, that, that was it, and we were a close family, and I think, like, that’s probably the greatest joy and blessing of, of my childhood.
I’m looking for yours, though. I want to hear yours, Wyatt. You’re getting deep here. I want to hear your stories. [00:07:00] Yours are more interesting than mine.
Wyatt Smith: You alluded to it. I mean, growing up on a farm in Alabama certainly shapes your perspective on lots of things. And my dad remains the hardest and best boss I’ve had in my career in many ways.
Best because, you know, I had the inability to quit. So, yeah, there was no There was no attrition opportunity when your dad’s the, the head rancher, but hardest in so far as he had just like extremely high expectations. And I think one thing you and I connected on early, Katherine was shared experience around the dignity of work being a really important part of formative experience.
And the folks that I grew up with in rural Alabama, Largely worked in trades, they were people that worked in lumber mills or were truck drivers or had experience in pipe fitting and that was super normal. It wasn’t something that I understood to be all that different and Alex’s parents, uh, somewhat similar being the child of a skilled trades person creates an impact.
Isn’t that right, Alex? That’s right.
Alex Hudgens: I was going to say, am I allowed to [00:08:00] say that St. Louis is boring? I’m going to get so much hate on social. I love you, St. Louis, Missouri. Go Cardinals. Uh, but yes, I’m from a, a not New York or LA place or SF place as well. My parents are from small town Tennessee and like Wyatt said, my dad’s been in home improvement my whole life.
All my uncles are in the trades, construction and carpenters, and one grandpa was a cowboy and the other grandpa was a UPS driver for 30 years. So I love this conversation. I didn’t know we were going to get straight to family y’all. That’s
Katherine Boyle: what matters.
Wyatt Smith: That’s I love the core unit of society. The reason why I wanted to probe here is, you know, a big, a big jumping off point for us is the country losing its way around really fundamental parts of what makes for a meaningful high purpose career.
I think particularly there’s an epidemic around, you know, young men who are without purpose in many parts of our country. And I’m curious about the why. Where do you think we lost our way? [00:09:00]
Katherine Boyle: It’s a great question. One of the things I think a lot about is mentorship, and I do think your first mentors come from the family.
Um, so, you know, we could, there’s been many books written about this, um, recently about, you know, boys need father figures, you know, and that’s, and that’s something where when you have a breakdown of family, you ultimately have a breakdown of society. I think that’s one aspect of it. But I also think there’s been sort of a breakdown in broader mentorship culture in this country.
My parents and grandparents had people who really took them under their wing in their first job. And they could point to their names and they could say, you know, this is a person who really not only gave me my shot, but taught me the trade or taught me the craft, taught me how to do something. And like, it’s still something that, you know, my mother talks about, my grandparents used to talk like that.
That was, that was, that was something people could point to. Um, and I do think something has broken in. Just broader work culture where the idea that you’re going to work at a place for a long time and build bonds and have true mentorship Like that that is not something that I think is as as robust and you know Whether we’re talking about knowledge workers, you know, [00:10:00] or whether we’re you know Who I think this generation changes jobs every 18 months 18 months is not a long enough time to really build these relationships or like, you know, there’s a there’s a lot of small and small business and trades There’s a lot of people who are going into retirement where they do not have that next generation that they’ve mentored, um, over 3, 4, 5 years.
Oftentimes there isn’t someone to take over the family business, there isn’t someone to take over the trade, or, or they, they’re just not someone who they’ve been able to build those bonds with. And so, you know, I think there’s, there’s something broader about not having the space for mentorship, not having the time for mentorship, or, or not, not having sort of the, the, the maybe generational connection to do that.
But I think that is something that, that underpins. This question of, you know, how do we make sure that the next generation feels that they’re taken care of, that they have people they can look up to, that they understand work and duty and commitment and all of those things. But I think it’s a broader question that needs to be explored more.
Wyatt Smith: You know, the case for skilled apprenticeship is one that we’re very happy to sing from the rooftops. [00:11:00] That was
Katherine Boyle: me teeing you up for, uh, for
Wyatt Smith: the solution. It’s the way we believe really strongly a point of view at UpSmith that this is how we work our way out of this hole we’re in, where we have a million openings in U.
S. manufacturing and construction right now on track to triple by 2030. We have a replacement rate problem that is really acute and more people leave than join all these really critical professions. But I think you alluded to your story about starting your career in journalism and how journalism is clearly a field that apprenticeship matters.
You’re coached on how to approach it. Are there any stories that stick out to you about mentors you had that were really impactful on your trajectory from
Katherine Boyle: there? Absolutely. One of the things I actually loved about, and of course, you know, media has changed dramatically. I joke, I mean, I’m a dinosaur. I, when I started my career, like.
Newsrooms looked very different. Uh, when I was at the Washington Post, they still had separate print writers. And digital writers, [00:12:00] and I was a print writer, and if you can believe this, being a print writer was higher status than being a online digital writer, so that’s how, I, I’m dating myself a bit, but like, you know, newspapers didn’t actually know kind of where things were going, but one of the things I loved about working in the Washington Post was that people had worked there for 30, 40, 50 years, you know, there were people who were there during Watergate who were still working in the newsroom.
And if, if you look at sort of the, the change that happened with newspapers is newspapers were really, you know, we always used to say like, you know, there, there were a lot of Irish people in the newsroom. I’m Irish so I can say it. There were a lot of people who like, you know, like, it’s like you either became a cop or you went and worked for the local paper.
And they were the children of Irish immigrants, and they still worked in the newsroom, and that was sort of the character of, you know, they, they cover, you know, they’re the beat reporters that, that really know the city, that really, you know, that, that have these sources that, that last decades, that sort of thing.
And I think that has changed, too, in, you know, that’s a whole other conversation about what’s changed, but I was really grateful because those people did mentor [00:13:00] me. I was very fortunate to have editors who had been around for a long time. Who took the time to say, your work is sloppy. You need to like, make sure that your grammar is better.
Like, like they were harsh. They were, uh, you know, you need to write faster. Like, you know, it’s like, got to get a paper out. Like, you know, the story’s not interesting, you know? And I think that sort of, um, early in career sort of rough feedback. The other, the other thing that, that, you know, I really appreciated it was like having a daily goal where it’s like, I have something that I’ve produced every day.
There’s a lot of jobs today that don’t have, where you can’t, like, feel the thing that you’ve produced. But the thing that I loved doing at the Washington Post because I was ready for print was, like, you’d go in in the morning, you’d pick up the paper, and you would, like, physically turn and see that thing that you did yesterday.
And you would see how good it was based on where it was in the paper. And so I loved having a daily mark that was, like, ideally produced it. Yeah. And I think, uh, you know, and many jobs are that way. Trades are certainly this way, where it’s, like, you see the thing you produce. You know, if it’s good or not, uh, the customer will tell you if it’s good or not, like you’ll, you’ll actually [00:14:00] tangibly feel it, you’ll see it.
And, and you feel good about that work. That was something that, you know, I still try to, and everything that I do try to like measure, like. What is the thing I did today? Like, and, and, and it’s, it’s not as concrete, um, as it used to be, but that physical paper used to mean a lot to me. You’re taking me back,
Alex Hudgens: Katherine.
No, I know, but I’m old, guys. It’s like, no, no, no. Not like that. Not like that at all. The, the newsroom days, I’m like, yeah, that sounds right. You’re in super early. You have an exact thing you have to get done. Your editor’s down your throat, and then At the end of the day, it’s done. And you know whether you did it or not.
I don’t miss it, but I do like that
Katherine Boyle: part. Yeah, well, I did love how multi generational it was, and like, it just felt like there were people from all walks of life, like, telling the stories, like, grinding really hard, running towards the end goal at 7. 30, like, whether you like it or not, this thing is getting shipped.
Those were fun days.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah, I’m gonna make it a bridge here to someone in the Skull Trade who I know is working by the same ethos, that will [00:15:00] feel afar, to go from the Washington Post newsroom to a plumbing company in Sacramento, California. But it’s actually a pretty good cop because we were talking with the business owner last week who feels deeply accountable every day on score card.
And there’s a top line number related to ticket volume. There’s a top line number related sales conversion. And has to perform and everyone is held accountable to that standard, and if it’s not working, it’s red, it’s blinking red and you can just sense like it’s palpable how how much stress can live when you are holding yourself to high standards, but also the culture that flows out of that is one that creates really important things.
And I think that the really interesting parallel between the two is something you’ve written a lot about, which is the case for American Seriousness. And I’d love it if you would just share for listeners what American Seriousness means to you.
Katherine Boyle: I talk about it in the context of what it means to be, [00:16:00] uh, an entrepreneur or a builder.
One of the things about serious is it’s hard to describe it, but you know it when you see it. Like there’s a physical manifestation when someone is taking their work. Their craft, the thing they’re building very seriously. And the, the first thing that I often notice about the most serious people is that they often get laughed at.
So you look at, you look at the people who just believe they’re going to do something in their communities and they take themselves very seriously. They’re working hard, and other people around them are just laughing at them like, who does this person think they are? Like taking themselves that seriously.
And to me that’s like. That’s like the immediate founder. That’s the immediate, like, Elon Musk. That’s the immediate, you know, like, like these astronauts who went up in the 60s. Like, did they actually think they were gonna make it to the moon? Sort of thing. Like, like, there’s, there’s sort of this, like, seriousness that we point to in American culture.
Where everyone sort of mocks these people until they make it. And so, the way that I, the way that I think about seriousness is, it’s, you are so obsessed with solving a problem. You are so obsessed with building something. You are so obsessed with making something new. [00:17:00] That nothing can stand in your way.
And the opposite of seriousness isn’t humor. Oftentimes people say, well, like seriousness, don’t we want to have levity and joy? And it’s like, yes, of course we do. The opposite of seriousness and humor. It’s irony. It’s nihilism. It’s believing that nothing matters. It’s believing that, like, oh, I can mock everything because everything’s just terrible and doom and gloom.
And, like, serious people don’t have that outlook. Serious people actually believe that the thing that they are working on is going to make their life better in the future and not worse. And so, I think sometimes what we lose Um, as a country, as a community, like the things that we’ve been losing is this view that like the days ahead of us are going to be much better.
And if we just, by our own faculties, start building things, like, like put our hands in the dirt and just start building, things will actually get better. And, you know, I see that in Silicon Valley where I work with founders every day. You know, I always call it the napkin stage. It’s like people come to me when they don’t have anything built yet and they have an idea.
And you can tell that people are going to run through walls because they care about a problem and whether you are [00:18:00] building a tech company, you know, whether you’re building a rocket company, a defense company, or whether you’re building a small business, I even think in the case of whether you’re building a family, how seriously you take that mission and how much work you put into it and how, how thoughtful you are about what the next day is going to bring like that to me is like what, what leads to this culture.
Of growth and prosperity and seriousness in this country. And so that’s the thing I don’t want to lose, but it’s, but it’s not just one job. It’s not one type of role. It’s not just one, it’s not just a family thing or, or a culture thing. It truly is something that we can apply to everything we do in our life.
That’ll preach.
Alex Hudgens: Woo! I want to hear
Katherine Boyle: your views on it too though, because I mean, you, we’ve talked about this a lot before Wyatt, like you, you’ve always wanted to build something in service of your community. You’ve always been interested in civic issues. Like what does seriousness mean to you?
Wyatt Smith: Yeah, you’re, you’re generous to ask.
I think that [00:19:00] over the longterm, like the values matter a lot. And the values on which our society works are ones around individual opportunity and giving people a chance for their life to be better than the situation, which they were born through hard work and and and prudence. And those are, I think, really core to the American experience where risk taking, you know, bounded by.
Lots of calculated, thoughtful approaches to things like pays off and at its core, like that drives a lot of optimism about the American experience and the belief that the future can be better than the past. But I worry a lot about that eroding if people don’t have an opportunity through hard work and prudence and the application of those energies towards that outcome.
Having been a teacher and coached a lot of people towards higher education in a form that was not effective for them, where they borrowed money for a product that wasn’t impactful [00:20:00] and in fact, were maybe worse off, not better off for the trade that stuck with me and when I was thinking about building a technology company to create opportunity for people, it tied back to the notion that skills based education is really the great equalizer because these are eminently learnable skills.
But if you marry them with somebody whose disposition and work ethic and outlook is one that is focused on building, you can unlock so much value for yourself, for your family, for your future. And unfortunately, our system right now is not working in a way that empowers people to pursue that. And that’s a big mission to take on.
Katherine Boyle: So you know this better than anyone. Why, why is it the case? What changed? When did it change? Like, why is it, why does the system, we all know that. You know, skilled trades are important. We all know that except the most extreme among us, we can all agree that work is important, that having a purpose in life is important, that building something is important.
Why is it that the system isn’t supporting people who want to do [00:21:00] that?
Wyatt Smith: Well, there, there are no like monocausal explanations for anything, but I do think there are a couple of things that are endemic. One of them is that the way we train people is largely focused on inputs, not outputs. What I mean by that is the business model for higher education is tied to enrollment, not.
What is the value of the thing that is produced through the experience? And we’ve designed a title for funding model where, you know, it’s really disconnected from, from value. It’s tied to like cost of attending. And if you meet certain criteria for title for eligibility, then you can continue going back to the well to debt finance education.
And Since 1992, you know, the inflation adjusted cost of higher education has increased 3, 4, 5 fold and average wages for people have been stagnant on a inflation adjusted basis. And so the hole that you’re digging into to get skills that have [00:22:00] only notional value in the actual market is a massive problem.
And so I think we’ve done some of this to ourselves. There also is a cultural element of stigmatizing skilled work in a way that I think. Certainly has contributed to our detriment and the value that comes from somebody being a plumber who goes and like creates really safe. High quality systems for how society operates at its most basic level is one that we should put on a pedestal.
That’s something that should be like, you know, deeply sought after and celebrated. Not just because you can make a lot of money, but because the work that you are doing, like, deeply matters for your community. And I think we’ve eroded that too. You guys, you’re,
Alex Hudgens: um, the book wreck queen. And can we see this for our, for our listeners who are watching?
Shop Class as Soulcraft is exactly what you guys are talking about. Like, he does such an incredible job of walking through the history of We have these incredible trades. There’s so much dignity. They matter. What happened? Why do we not care anymore? And [00:23:00] how can we get back to that place? So, if you’re watching this or if you’re listening, Shop Class as Soulcraft.
Masterclass! I loved it. Look at all the post its.
Katherine Boyle: Yeah, excited to read it. That was
Wyatt Smith: required reading for an UpSmith off site. Oh, good! A couple, a couple quarters ago, it was for those who may not be aware, Katherine has invested very heavily in companies that are investing in defense capabilities for promoting democracy and protecting our way of life.
This is an area where the skill trades gap is particularly acute, and I think it really speaks to also threatening basic national security as somebody who’s well versed in this topic, like, what do you see as the primary risks that we face due to. Shortages of these skilled skilled labor areas.
Katherine Boyle: Yeah, the risks are extremely high.
Um, and the, the scary thing is, you know, we, the skilled trades hold everything together in the hardware world. Um, so I think, you know, thing that that is top of mind for a lot of people right now is when doors start falling off of airplanes, there’s a real problem in quality control [00:24:00] and manufacturing.
And that is something that I think, you know, has kind of risen the public interest in this idea of It’s not just, uh, a theoretical thing of we don’t have enough people that can manufacture different types of munitions or different types of things for, for national security’s purposes. It’s, it’s actually affecting day to day things that will be in our daily life, um, like air travel, you know, like being able to, to repair various things that, that are very important, um, for supply chain in national security.
So I think like the, the big picture problem. That, you know, we see in companies that are, you know, doing kind of manufacturing of parts for aerospace or defense is that it is very difficult to train people up and to go back to this mentorship problem that you mentioned, it used to be that someone would apprentice under someone for years and they would know how to machine parts.
They would know how to build products that are very specific for, you know, large industrial companies. And there just isn’t that kind of of mentorship and talent [00:25:00] where now that those people who own these shops who are in their You know 50s 60s about to retire. There isn’t someone to take over that business yeah, and that I actually think is is a broader problem that’s hitting the defense industrial base quite highly because If if we look forward in the next 10 years Those businesses have nowhere to go, uh, they’ve no one to run them, and if we don’t kind of find that sort of next generation of talent, companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon that depend on the defense industrial base are going to have a serious, serious problem.
So there are companies in our portfolio, I’ll highlight a company like Hadrian that, that’s, you know, helping to automate manufacturing to make machining parts cheaper. That also relies upon skilled labor. It also relies upon people being able to come in and learn how to work these machines with automation.
And so it really is a question of how do we make sure that in the next 10 years, we’re bringing more people into these trades, we’re making these jobs. Really fruitful because if you were not able to machine the parts that are needed to go into an F [00:26:00] 35 or to go into a SpaceX rocket, like there is a huge, huge problem, you know, and so we have to start really thinking about
Wyatt Smith: that.
I love that you invoke the aviation example because it’s such a rich one in that, in that respect. And I think a lot of people may not be aware that the original equipment manufacturers themselves are really doing more assembly. And not the actual production of the components that go into those airplane doors and the rivets and then and it really is what you’re alluding to.
It’s this very fragmented, broad scale base of not even tier one suppliers that those are folks that are doing fabrication of things and playing together. It’s actuators and controllers and things that are happening in a machine shop in rural Texas that is owned by a single proprietor and maybe his or her nephew works in the business or maybe doesn’t.
And to your point, If you have this big fragmented base of people that don’t turn over, that’s a massive, massive
Katherine Boyle: risk. Yeah. Well, and also, like, at one point, the fragmentation and [00:27:00] sort of the very distributed base was actually a good thing. It was, it was, you had some redundancies. So, like, it was actually a good thing that one company wasn’t building everything internally.
And that, like, there was a view that, you know, this robust, as you said, like, there’s, you know, machine shops in Tennessee or Texas that are building these things. Like, you had this robust defense industrial base. Where if one little, you know, shop couldn’t deliver, another shop could. Um, and it was a good thing.
But when you have sort of this broader crisis of there’s no generation to take over these shops, and there’s no culture of mentorship where people are training the next generation, not only to manage the shops, but also to manufacture the parts. Um, when you don’t have the labor in order to do that, then you have an existential crisis for these larger companies that can’t do it on their own.
As you said, like, they’ve always been dependent on this, on this. You know, not, not just the, the, the tier one suppliers, but the, the underlying defense industrial base that, that is spread out across America. And so now we have this existential threat that didn’t exist 20 years ago. Yeah.
Wyatt Smith: So you, you mentioned [00:28:00] Hadrian, they still are taking a really big swing here.
You’ve been very involved with Andrew L and others. Are there example strategies that you see working well to be able to drive more workforce productivity despite the challenges that exist? Yeah, in labor market,
Katherine Boyle: I’d love to say that that, you know, automation is going to save us that, you know, technology is going to be like the core thing that really changes things for, for skilled workforce.
Honestly, like the thing that, that I think is gonna change it the most is a cultural shift. And I look at Elon Musk and I look at what he did for rockets. People don’t remember, but like the space program was so passe, no one cared about. In, in, you know, in the nineties, in the early two thousands, it was one of the, and, and when he was really founding SpaceX.
People thought he was insane and it was just it was not a popular major It was not like space was not broad and the American consciousness and the way that it should have been and I think the thing That he has done for these like very, you know, like for not only, you know Tesla of building [00:29:00] cars building rockets for these things that are very difficult to do is he has made them He’s given them high status.
He’s made them really cool And most importantly, if you go on the SpaceX YouTube channel, or if you go on the SpaceX, you know, Twitter, Twitter handle, like, you see the most incredible videos. They build in public. And the other thing that I love, that I think SpaceX has really changed the culture around, you know, building hardware, the other thing that they’ve done, is they’ve really like, They’ve made it okay to fail.
And I think like we, you know, we don’t look at failure in the context of, Oh, like the rocket blew up or the rocket, you know, the first couple of SpaceX rockets and, and, you know, in the early days they blew up, there was always this culture of, we’re learning so much, we’re getting so much data and that’s continued through the company.
And I think that’s something too, that like the American education system really doesn’t celebrate is like. It’s okay to fail, and it’s okay to learn from those mistakes. And if you’re going to do something hard, especially in the physical world, you’re going to have a lot of failure. That’s why you need a mentor who cares about you, who takes you under their ring, says how you failed, and how you can make it better.
But [00:30:00] like, the apprenticeship model should actually celebrate failure. And it should celebrate failure in a way that allows you to learn from those failures and not fail again. And so I think that’s one of the things that, that’s really going to change the culture, is one, making manufacturing cool, making, you know, skilled trades cool.
But also just showing sort of what the, the fruits of these are, which is like, we’re, we’re literally sending massive rockets and reincident and landing them again. It’s, it’s extraordinary. And I think that that’s something that allows everyone who works on these products to be extremely proud of what they’re building.
Alex Hudgens: So good. You’re speaking my language now. I’m like, yes, storytelling. I wanted to go there with you because especially with a background in journalism and just talking about multigenerational households, like there’s such a clear. Storytelling thread and who you are and even just how you speak is so engaging and I’m so curious What would you say to companies out here who need to be using?
Storytelling and those YouTube videos that SpaceX says to [00:31:00] get people interested in the trades again to make them cool Like how do we actually
Katherine Boyle: do that? Every company, whether it’s a small business, whether it’s a family run business or whether it is, you know, the biggest business in the world has a story and has a mission, has a purpose.
And too often, I think, you know, people are embarrassed to tell the origin story of why they built a business or what it stands for too often. We, we, we just think, oh, well, no one will care about that. Or I’m not good at like the thing. I always, you know, I hear founders say this all the time. I’m not good at storytelling.
I don’t really feel comfortable. It’s like, no, no, no. People want to connect with, with. The underlying values of a product they want to connect with like the underlying thing that The company stands for and that is so important too in recruiting like it’s so important for getting people to want to work with you and so You know, I would say if you’re if you’re running a small business and you’re trying to hire people and like The first thing to do is to really tell them what you stand for.
Have your values on the door. Like, I work for a firm that has our values, [00:32:00] like, on the door. These are the things that we believe. This is how we do business. And we hold ourselves accountable to that. And I think people love to come into a place where it’s like, these are the things we stand for. Like, this is, we ship on time.
Like, we always correct our mistakes. We do business in an ethical way. And like, being upfront about that, putting it on the door so people can see it, not only do your customers love that sort of thing, But like, the people will want, like, people want to work for people who have that kind of integrity. And so, I think it’s, in some ways we sometimes think, Oh, of course, of course that’s how I do business, why would I tell people that?
It’s like, no, no, actually saying it, actually putting it out there, you know, putting it on the door, saying it to every candidate you talk to, these are the values that our business stands for. It was founded by myself, it was founded by my father, it was founded by, you know, someone who I deeply respect, and that’s that person’s story.
We just need to be better at explaining to people why the things we’re doing matters. And I think everyone, you know, deep down, like we, we communicate through stories. It’s not something where you have to, anyone can tell the story of their family. Anyone can store the cellular story of their purpose. And I [00:33:00] think we just have to be less ashamed to do it.
So
Wyatt Smith: good. Any moment. I know that Alex is going to pull out the book that you and your colleague, Oliver, gifted us on our last trip to San Francisco, which has been Horowitz’s. It’s one. I have a stack. Yeah. What you do is who you are. Yeah. Um, which is UpSmith Book Club on Friday. Oh, good. We’re having the culture check in.
Yeah. The values of our company are around being an owner. Believing in people, raising expectations, um, biasing to action and committing to that mission. And we, we try to evaluate candidates on that topic. We hold each other accountable on that topic. We do interview reviews about how people have lived those values.
And so, couldn’t agree more. Like having something you’re about and being unapologetic about that is, is key to building something special. Yeah. And you, you cited, uh, Elon. We, we certainly are, Elon stands over here too. I’m curious about, like, that company culture at SpaceX is [00:34:00] so mission driven, and the exceptional ins which people sacrifice in pursuit of that mission are just next level.
Are there things that you would say are transferable insights people can take about how to build mission driven culture that, that, look to that example that are
Katherine Boyle: repeatable? Yeah, I mean, but I, but I think that the most powerful thing, you know, it was maybe a couple years ago where Elon was on a podcast hosted by my, my, my partner, Sriram, and he talked about like how difficult it is to run a company like SpaceX and how, because it is so difficult, like he basically said, you know, they see me sleeping on the factory floor.
And like, because I am sleeping on the factory floor, other people will, will follow. And I think like that goes back to the book you just mentioned, Ben’s What You Do Is Who You Are. Like, it’s easy to say that your values are something, it’s a lot harder to do, to live those values, to do those values. And when, when an entire company sees the founder of the firm, [00:35:00] or the founder of the business, working hard, sleeping on the floor because they have to ship a product the next day, and, you know, why go home?
Gonna sleep, gonna sleep next to the machines? Like, that, that ultimately drives company culture. And so, you know, that’s like the takeaway from, from Ben’s book. It’s the takeaway from a company like SpaceX. Like, I’m never gonna manufacture a rocket. That’s not my purpose in life. Uh, that’s not what, that’s not what I’m gonna do.
But like, I’m gonna live my life by that, that tenet of how I act should be something that I am proud of, even if no one’s watching. And that everyone that I work with, my partners, my team, that they feel that I am working to the utmost of my ability so that they’ll do the same. And I, and I do think like having that sort of pride in your work is like the ultimate, again, SpaceX building in public, these people have pride in their work and it doesn’t matter what part of the rocket you built, you’re doing it as a team, you know, the, the, the tiniest, tiniest error on a rocket can blow the entire thing up.
So everyone’s job matters. And like, that’s how we [00:36:00] should think about companies too. Everyone’s job matters, no matter whether you’re the, the founder CEO sleeping on the floor or whether you’re the last person in the door. And so my takeaway and the inspiration that I’ve always taken away from SpaceX is that we, you know, we as as human beings are able to do something so extraordinary, but it’s really this collective effort.
And it really is everyone running as fast as they can, working as hard as they can, sleeping on the floor, um, trying to trying to achieve a noble goal. I reflect
Wyatt Smith: on when NASA had that at its core in the space race. And you alluded to the thing that set apart those that had the good, the right stuff. Um, And there’s the story of the janitor at mission control who was asked, what is it that you do?
And he responded, I’m putting a man on the moon and it speaks to, I think, how that cascades down from leadership too. And if you set that bar, then you build a culture where everyone’s part of the mission. So that’s a great thing to aspire to also. So we’re close to time. Alex, [00:37:00] I think we have the end here around lightning round.
But I think, gosh, this could have gone on for so long. We have much
Katherine Boyle: longer talking. I only
Alex Hudgens: have 900 additional questions for the next two seconds. So we’ll start. We’ll do part. Two through ten, if we can, if we can get you
Katherine Boyle: where we’re at. And next time I’ll interview you both. I said I wanted to make it more of a conversation than just a, just a story of me.
So next time, next time we’ll do it that way. I love
Alex Hudgens: it. Do you have time for a lightning round of what I’d call wrecks and
Katherine Boyle: hacks? Oh gosh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll have to, I’ll have to be quick on the mic.
Alex Hudgens: That’s good, that’s great. That’s what we want. It’s a hot take. It’s a gut check. So for all of our listeners who are perhaps Builders at heart.
They want to start something. They want to found something. Obviously, you work with founders all the time. And it’s going to be in the trades. So this is your context. What is a book recommendation you
Katherine Boyle: have? Book recommendation? I’m actually like looking at my books right now. What’s a book recommendation?
Um, Well, I mean, we already talked about it, but [00:38:00] I do think what you do is who you are is great. I also think Ben’s book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things is like the, it is the canonical book about how hard it is to build something. It stems from a number of essays he wrote about when he was a CEO. Um, and my, someone actually just posted this and I like, I don’t want to mess it up.
But my, my favorite, one of my favorite Ben Horowitz quotes is, As a founder CEO, I slept like a baby. I woke up every two hours and cried. And like, that is, that is true. Um, and, and I’m sure, I’m sure why I could speak, you know, it’s like when you’re building something new. It’s constantly on your mind. It is constantly running through walls.
So I very much recommend that book, um, to people who, who really want to know what it’s like to build something new and, and to be the leader of a company. I love that.
Alex Hudgens: What is a question that you think those people should be asking themselves first thing in the morning, every day?
Katherine Boyle: What is my purpose? And I think like, it sounds [00:39:00] maybe a little bit trite or um, or kind of lofty to say like, to remind yourself of that every day.
But I do think like, that daily reminder of like, what is, what am I on this earth to be doing? Am I doing it is also a core component of that question, not just like, what is it, but like, am I, do I really think I’m doing that thing, whether it’s being a mother or a father, whether it’s being a business owner, whether it’s being a worker who’s, who’s perfecting a skill, um, just like keeping that top of mind that like, we are on this earth for a purpose and making sure that we’re always working towards that.
And like, usually if we ask that question more, not less, it’ll, it’ll take us where, where we’re supposed to be. That’s so good.
Alex Hudgens: We’re going to make that the last question. I do have one more that I’m not going to get in there because that’s a great way to end. Great way to end. Uh, obviously at UpSmith, we care a lot about increasing workforce productivity.
I want to know, do you have any productivity hacks or tools or optimizations? Like, some people go to their morning routine. Some people say, Oh, I love Asana. Like, what are the tools and hacks that you use that you [00:40:00] recommend?
Katherine Boyle: Oh gosh. You know, I, so I, I was, I’m not a routine person. Like I’m one of these people where the only thing I do the same every day is like, I get up in the morning and have a cup of coffee and then like everything, you know, it’s like my, my day is really different every day.
But, but what I’ll say is like the best productivity hack that I figured out is knowing what I’m good at and knowing what I’m not good at and making sure that I really focus on the things that I’m good at. So, like, so often in school, this always bothered me, it’s like, or, or even like, you know, when, when you’re starting out your career, you’re always told what you’re failing at, and then, like, you know, really work on those things that you’re failing.
And it’s like, at a certain point, it’s like, maybe you’re just not gonna be excellent at the thing you’re failing at, and that’s okay. Uh, and I have a lot of failures and things I’m never gonna succeed at, but, like, I know what I’m good at, and I should always just throw maximum effort behind the things that are good.
And then the things that I’m not good at, find a team, work in a team, work in a place that augments those abilities and recognizes, hey, like, we don’t want you to be spending all your time in one area when you could be doing the thing that you’re really good at. So I think, like, really, [00:41:00] that’s another question, like, really asking yourself constantly, what am I good at?
What do I shine at? And like, how can I lean into those strengths and let other people lean into their strengths, which happen to be my weaknesses? And if you do that, you, you just become a lot more productive because it’s not such a daily grind. of like constantly feeling like you’re failing. Like there’s nothing worse than feeling like you’re not good at something.
But when you get the momentum of, Oh, I’m actually good at this thing. It makes work more fun. You have the wind at your sails. So really leaning into your strengths and sort of letting others augment your weaknesses. Oh, so good.
Alex Hudgens: Okay, last question. I’m going kind of rogue, but I would be remiss not to ask.
As a woman working obviously at a very high level in the trades, if you will, but we’ve obviously got to get more women into this. Very large field. What would you say to any women who are listening? Because, historically, we haven’t been encouraged to be in the trades. We haven’t been encouraged to be builders per se.
What would you say?
Katherine Boyle: Well, I think there’s now so many, I mean, you know, to go back to [00:42:00] SpaceX, it’s like, Gwynne Shotwell is the number two at SpaceX. And she’s been there since the early days. And like, to me, she’s probably one of the most inspirational women. Um, to just see what she’s been able to build and what she’s been able to do is, is the number two to Elon in terms of the, you know, the importance she’s had in this, this very important project of, of getting to Mars and, and, and building, building 21st century space.
I mean, it’s just extraordinary. And so I think like, you know, for, for people who, who, who need the nudge of seeing people in those places, we now have so many examples. Of, of women who, who have done the hard thing. Um, and so that, that to me is sort of what, what, you know, what, what, if I have those doubts or if I have those questions or when I had those doubts, it, always looking to those success stories and saying, wow, like, it’s extraordinary to see what they’ve achieved.
Mm
Alex Hudgens: hmm. So good. All right, cut me off, Wyatt. I can’t do anymore. We’re in, we’re done, we’re
Katherine Boyle: done.
Wyatt Smith: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of untapped with UpSmith. We’d love it if [00:43:00] you’d share this episode with anyone, you know, who might benefit from our discussion. And don’t
Alex Hudgens: forget to subscribe, leave us a review wherever you get your podcast and connect with us on social media or at UpSmith.com.
