Steve Lee: [00:00:00] If a kid’s poor at three, they’re going to be poor at thirty, bar none. That’s just fact. And so what are you doing about it? And I feel like there’s only two things in life or within a system that can change intergenerational poverty, right? One is education, right? How do we teach our kids better? And that’s obviously there’s a whole system around that.
Steve Lee: And second is work. If you can create stable work, stable wages, stable family, that leads to stable kids. And the kids will do better in life.
Wyatt Smith: Steve’s been a great friend to our company. He’s very focused on Uh, helping to create [00:01:00] meaningful, high dignity, purposeful work for people across the United States and the impact of the skill of coalition, uh, is really substantial.
Wyatt Smith: So we’re excited to learn from Steve today on Untapped with UpSmith about ways to combat the skilled labor crisis. Steve, thanks for joining us.
Steve Lee: Awesome. It’s my pleasure. Honored to be here. Uh, thank you. Thank you for allowing the grace of me to come on. So I appreciate it.
Alex Hudgens: I want to dive right into your story because.
Alex Hudgens: I’ve seen your LinkedIn, it’s very impressive, I would like you to touch on the things there. But you were telling us a great story about your childhood off camera, so will you go back into that so that everybody listening or watching gets involved?
Steve Lee: Uh, sure. My LinkedIn profile is kind of boring, but, um, so let me tell you about my childhood.
Steve Lee: So like, like Wyatt, um, my dad grew up on a farm and I think that formed, probably similar to Wyatt, that formed his beliefs in life. Uh, and then he went from afar, went to college, came to the States in his early 20s. And I [00:02:00] think that he always talks about like this idea of like success in life is built on this notion of what he calls the 80 percent perspiration and 20 percent inspiration.
Steve Lee: And I want to say this really interestingly, you got to work hard in life. I think that’s true. And part of it is Asian culture, uh, let’s be honest about that. But any culture, I think working hard is actually important. But where inspiration comes is actually people have different views of what inspiration means, right?
Steve Lee: And I think for me, where inspiration drives from is this idea of joy, like, what is it that brings me joy? Whether it’s, you know, um, a great tiramisu brings me joy, right? Or watching my alma mater win a sweet 16 game, like it brings me joy. Did that just happen? And so my career transitions, um, it just happened this past weekend.
Steve Lee: Well, sort of, right? Um, so what brings me joy is what inspires me. And I think that’s what led to some of my career transitions over time, which you can see on LinkedIn, right? Is we are sensitive with this notion. What brings me joy? Um, and so family brings me [00:03:00] joy and where I am now, right? Trying to help Americans, you know, measurably and sustainably lift themselves out of poverty.
Steve Lee: Right? Brings me a lot of joy, even though it’s challenging as all it
Wyatt Smith: brings. It brings us joy to get a chance to learn from you. Uh, so I, you know, I would love to like drill in around for people that are not familiar, the SkillUp Coalition, its mission, the things that you’re investing in. Would you mind giving the 1 0 1 for people on, on your work?
Steve Lee: Of course, of course. Yeah. I really appreciate, um, the ability to share a little bit. So SkillUp is a great application platform. Um, we like to say, although we’re not expert debt, that we’re a concierge service for low wage workers. Looking to obstacle to better jobs. The reason I like that term is that the folks who try to help, they never get concierge, right?
Steve Lee: They often get non, non concierge. And how we try to do it is, I think, probably threefold. Is one, we market only [00:04:00] to a particular population. Which I think you guys know, which are non degree workers, low wage, however you want to describe it, that’s our core focus area, and that’s who we touch exclusively.
Steve Lee: When they come to the public experience, and when they come, basically it’s three calls to action. You can search for the right career, you can search for the right training program, or you can search for the right job. And what we’ve done in the background, He’s we’ve done a whole lot of homework where we’ve curated the experience to offer what we think are the best fit for purpose for this population.
Steve Lee: So we’re never going to be indeed. We’re not going to be linked in. We’re never going to have millions, but we can have our job catalog. We have several thousand because we’ve stripped out all the noise in the system where folks can get things that are really viable and actually meet their lifestyle. So I’ll give you two examples.
Steve Lee: So for example, we have a really good list of training programs. All of them have to be less than [00:05:00] 12 months or less than 10, 000 because of the barriers for folks or time and money. So you want to strip away the noise and make sure that it’s violent on the job side. All of our jobs don’t require a college degree for real.
Steve Lee: And so the example I gave is, you know, we’re partners with Google. Um, they’re the engineer jobs are often don’t have college degree, but the reality is we all, as the vast majority have a college degree. So we’re not going to put that on there, even though technically they may require it realistically.
Steve Lee: I’ll scale up. Usually will never get it. So we stripped those out with things that are really viable. And the last thing I’ll say is we offer what we like to call a digital warm hug because this notion of getting a high point can be long and arduous. So how can we use technology to wrap ourselves around you to offer resource connections, guidance, coaching, etc.
Steve Lee: That could help you get to the place you want to go, because sometimes it can be a long and arduous. And obviously we’re using some generic tools to do some of that stuff. Right? But that’s sort of what we think is our special sauce. Right? This idea of curation, [00:06:00] this idea of digital warm hub, and really focus specifically on this population.
Steve Lee: So we’re not going to boil an ocean, but we can boil what we think is a pretty big lake. And where the hopefully is effective and we have some decent outcomes, uh, at least to that effect.
Alex Hudgens: That’s really, I want a digital warm hug. That sounds so nice. What a great North star. Yeah. I love that.
Wyatt Smith: Steve, would you share a little bit about how you came to the work?
Wyatt Smith: What was, what was that process of seeking joy professionally that led to the intersection with SkillUp?
Steve Lee: Yeah, it’s a great question. I’ll start from my journey from, uh, like the for profit into the, into non profit space. And so, um, yeah, I was in the private sector for many years. And as I, as I sort of worked in that sector, one of the things that I think came up for me, that I think is a scourge in this country, is this notion of sort of, um, income inequality, the K shaped economy, and most important for me, intergenerational poverty.
Steve Lee: That is, if you ask [00:07:00] parents, what’s the most important thing in life, it’s for the kid to get better, right? And that’s not always true for the population that we care about. In fact, I remember at grad T, when I was in philately side, Steve, Uh, if, if a kid’s poor at three, they’re going to be poor at 30, bar none, that’s just fact.
Steve Lee: And so what are you doing about it? And I feel like there’s only two things in life or within the system that can change intergenerational poverty, right? One is education, right? How do we teach our kids better? And that’s obviously there’s a whole system around that. And second is work. If you can create stable work, stable wages, stable family, that leads to stable kids, And the kids will do better in life.
Steve Lee: So my transition has been into this world of like, how do we fight interracial poverty? And specific in work, I joined SkillUp in part to be part, a small part, hopefully, of a larger ecosystem that can really provide stability for families across the country so that their kids can be better [00:08:00] off than them.
Steve Lee: And that’s what all parents want. So that’s what drove me into SkillUp. It’s what drove me into full activity to begin. And, uh, I think it’s really important. Because the data suggests that kids are not doing that well. SkillUp. com Right. And so we all want them to do better in life. And that’s what parents want as well.
Alex Hudgens: That’s so, uh, that’s so good, but, um, heavy. That’s a, those are heavy statistics, heavy trends. What, how do you find it’s kind of why it’s question again, but I want to go even, even further. How do you continuously find joy in a really. Heavy topic and heavy problem that you’re trying to solve.
Steve Lee: Well, I want, want out the, the, the, the partners and the, the, the folks who are in the system, like you guys, right.
Steve Lee: Bring me joy because we’re all trying to solve for a really hard problem, but we’re doing it, we hope with intelligence, but also like grace and humility, like recognizing that we [00:09:00] need to work with each other to do great things and recognizing that we ourselves can only solve so much. All right. So you have to work with others.
Steve Lee: And so I feel like the vast majority of people I’ve met in this space come at it with passion, compassion, integrity, and humility. I think those things are really important and that epitomizes us in it. Uh, so that’s what brings me joy, is to be able to solve really hard problems with like minded people who really don’t take themselves too seriously, right?
Steve Lee: That take the problem really seriously. I know it sounds trite, but I think it’s true. And do it with partnership mentality. And really with grace and humility. I think that’s really important because the problem is really hard. Unless you have some humble attitude towards it. Um, you’re just not going to solve it.
Steve Lee: Right. So that, that’s where it brings me joy is really folks like us.
Wyatt Smith: You’re sure to say it. Very honored.
Alex Hudgens: Yes.
Wyatt Smith: Well, like, I, I, I’d love to drill into like more examples that come out of that coal, the coalition’s work. So [00:10:00] sure. Reading the impact report from 2023 and I would, I would encourage anyone interested in the mission that we’re on to, to check it out.
Wyatt Smith: We’ll put it in the show notes. I mean, the numbers are very impressive. So more than 30, 000 people trained across the coalition, more than 10, 000 jobs created 400 million some odd dollars of, of wage growth. An 80 to one return on investment that’s being made. What are lessons you’re learning about how to be impactful and what are the trends that come out of that, that you think are, are most compelling?
Steve Lee: Yeah. Um, I, I probably, I probably don’t want to talk about like good numbers, right? I kind of want to touch upon, I think the, the challenges, right. And I’ll talk, I’ll talk about from like a worker perspective. And then I’ll talk about it from like the employer data perspective, which I think is pretty much on the ecosystem.
Steve Lee: But let me start with the latter first. So there’s been a lot of research, you know, burning glasses, put some stuff out right around this notion of [00:11:00] non degree jobs. Could jobs like college degree are largely filled with folks with college degrees, right? That just came out fairly recently. Uh, and there’s other data that suggests that the whole skills based movement is largely on the periphery of actually really making impact.
Steve Lee: And so I think about that from a skill led perspective, like WorkRoute Voice, we were lucky to have a survey panel of 5, 000 SkillF users. Which is a lot that we can serve very regularly to get their pulse right on what they feel about the labor. Now it’s marketplace and what they’re telling us. I think resonates with what the data is telling us.
Steve Lee: It’s frustrating. It’s a struggle. Um, and that the vast majority of folks that we’re helping, it takes a while for them to be able to get something that’s meaningful. Um, they tell us they need support right to be able to get to get across the finish line. Um, but they tell us that they respect someone who’s got sort of got their back, right?[00:12:00]
Steve Lee: This idea of like a digital warm heart that I mentioned, right? Like, we’re going to continue to push, right, for, for change. And I think they respect that someone at least digitally has their back, just like you guys have the back of the workers out that year. So I think a lot of it comes down to like this idea of trust, right?
Steve Lee: Integrity. You say, say what you mean, you know, mean what you say kind of stuff and you know, we’re very transparent, but we do and we’re surface of all the challenges that we have and all the things we don’t do well, but I feel like the labor market is very interesting. We’ll get more into that where I think I think what workers are telling us resonates with what the data suggests around skills based hiring.
Steve Lee: And what’s, what I think is good is that there are folks like you guys that are trying to solve the problem, um, with brace and humility, and, um, and that, that’s what gives me joy to try to figure some of this stuff out, because it’s not giving joy. In many ways for the workers, for the workers, we
Wyatt Smith: look at a lot of labor data.
Wyatt Smith: And right now the numbers are hard to make sense of. Yeah. Unemployment rates are as low as they’ve been in a long time. Um, in many cases, [00:13:00] sub 4%. At the same time, you have over a million openings in us manufacturing construction. It’s even higher when you layer out other parts of the economy, as many as 9 million openings in the U S right now.
Wyatt Smith: And there’s 15 million people on the sidelines. And so how do you make sense of that? And. What’s the story underneath it?
Steve Lee: Yeah, um, I, I don’t have a good, great answer why I’m out, uh, to be honest with you. I, I wonder whether from an employer side, there’s not enough of a competitive reason, right? To take people from the sideline, right?
Steve Lee: Whether they’re, they’re, you know, they, they’re, they’re doing well enough, right? That they don’t need to fill some slots, even though they didn’t have those job opportunities. Otherwise, you know, labor economics, economics would suggest, right, that they would hire some folks. But there’s a, there must be a business reason why that, so I don’t know if the competitive pressures are, are, are strong enough.
Steve Lee: I also think that when people do hire, that they’re stealing from Peter to pay Paul. [00:14:00] That is, they’re taking a college degree holder, many who are looking for a job, right, and hiring those folks because there are enough of them around to hire, as opposed to hiring folks without a college degree. So you basically doing a swap of college holders from one company.
Steve Lee: I think that’s actually happening. And so, you know, I don’t have a great answer on this. But I feel like one, the competitive pressures probably aren’t strong enough. And two, I do think there’s a swap thing going. And hence the folks who are trying to, uh, help, they are caught between, caught in the middle.
Steve Lee: They’re caught between Scylla and Charybdis , and they need folks like UpSmith, right, to be able to take them from Scylla into Charybdis, right? And they need folks like SkillUp knew that otherwise they’re gonna be stuck in this sort of, this mire, right, of what I think is happening in the daily market.
Alex Hudgens: I love a Greek mythology reference.
Alex Hudgens: Let’s go. I’m like, wait, what? Karypt is who? Okay, great. Done. I’m good for the day. Not that what we’re talking about is good, but I think it’s
Wyatt Smith: very insightful. I, [00:15:00] um, particularly when you layer on the point you made around how you look at people’s underlying skills or the competencies that they show, how do those competencies map to credentials?
Wyatt Smith: How does the credential unlock very productive work you’re partnering with all sorts of companies who are working on this problem. I’m curious about a story of a person impacted that jumps out that cuts against some of the dynamics. She just alluded to people that you can point to as wins. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll,
Steve Lee: I’ll, I’ll give you an example.
Steve Lee: Um, we, we, we have, uh, we have a partner with Amazon and, uh, and, um, yeah, they hire warehouse workers. So the person that we’re dealing with, uh, but I think it’s interesting is that her incentive structure is pinned in part on hiring nine degree workers and that’s built her into an incentive. But that’s interesting, right?
Steve Lee: Because I think without that incentive structure, what happens is inertia kicks in, [00:16:00] right? So this idea of, you know, we’re going to do things the same old way, and there are enough degree holders where inertia can win the day. But when you have an incentive structure that can buttress against inertia, then you might have something, but having that kind of incentive structure is really hard to do.
Steve Lee: And obviously the vast majority of companies don’t have that. So that to me is a win, but I think it’s a win that is very much a uniform win. That is being able to replicate that I think is really, really hard. And so this is why I think you see some of the data that out there from Burning Glass. Because like, yeah, incentives matter a lot, as we all know, and the structures aren’t built enough to overcome the inertia, uh, what’s happened historically.
Steve Lee: And I think unless you do that, we’re going to be in the same situation with our grandkids. Like, I actually really believe that, right? And, I don’t know, I don’t know what’s going to force, what’s the foreseen mechanism. I, I’ll get, I’ll get, I’ll share a story. That was in um, Arkansas for a SHRM conference.
Steve Lee: And Sherm put up an interesting data that said something like 90 [00:17:00] percent of employers really want to do skills based hiring, and yet only like 15 percent actually really do. And so I got to raise my hand. It was like, well, what about the set of like, what’s the forcing mechanism for the other 75%? And I got not a good answer.
Steve Lee: In fact, I got, I got no answer. Right. So I wonder with that 75%, like what’s the forcing mechanism. And I struggle with that. To be honest.
Wyatt Smith: So for those not aware, uh, Sherm, the society for human resource management. They’re having a conference, they’re talking about what, what leads to those outcomes. I go back to the Amazon case study you shared.
Wyatt Smith: What are the incentives for that person who’s, who’s making a decision to hire non degree based workers?
Steve Lee: Yeah. Her, her, her bonus is pegged in part to how many folks she hires that are non degree holders. Or, or, or, or not, or not traditional hires and that matters, right? And so that leads to interesting conversations.
Steve Lee: It leads to, you know, real and meaningful impact [00:18:00] because she drives that with her team, like her team is an incentive box for acting the same. And I think, but it’s the only incentive structure that I think I’ve really seen that actually drives towards really to some level hiring, hiring non degree workers.
Steve Lee: Uh, and I don’t, I don’t know why Amazon did it, but in this one case they did. And I just wonder whether other companies can take some, some of that approach, but otherwise, why, why, why would you do it?
Wyatt Smith: Yeah.
Steve Lee: Like if I’m working for a company, like what’s going to drive my, let’s,
Wyatt Smith: let’s, let’s keep talking about it.
Wyatt Smith: So conceivably there’s something in it for Amazon too, that’s motivating why they would create that structure. So, so what do you think Amazon’s logic is around building that system?
Steve Lee: Yeah. I think that they, you know, they need workers, right? To fill the warehouses. Right. And I think that’s true. So, but the question is like, well, what about a FedEx?
Steve Lee: What about an EPS? Right? Kind of thing. Um, I, I, I feel like, you know, some of those folks are hiring, they’re hiring [00:19:00] seasonal. They are hiring non degree workers. But, you know, typically they’re relatively low level jobs. For the Amazons, yeah, there are some low level jobs. But there are some jobs that are actually really poised for success, where wages are actually pretty high, that’s built into an incentive structure.
Steve Lee: And so what I don’t want to do is I don’t want to send a skilled abuser into another low level job, right? I want to put them in a job that actually has trajectory for the future. Uh, and I think for some of the Amazon roles, there aren’t. Like you can go to the warehouse and then you can take advantage of their education benefits, right?
Steve Lee: Which is really strong. And so I think that’s a tipping point for us. Like get the job and you can have education benefits within such a structure that allows folks to get hired. I just haven’t seen that type of structure, right? In other companies, but I think I might be missing something. Why not? So maybe there are other companies that have some similar structures.
Steve Lee: I would love to see that. Is that we can think about partnering with them. I just, I just haven’t seen it.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah, we’re serving a lot of skilled trades [00:20:00] companies at Upsmith who Who know that there is work to go capture if they have ready talent to go capture it. And that’s in an environment where, you know, jobs are getting more scarce.
Wyatt Smith: Certainly every lead matters and they’re, they’re investing really heavily in those leads. And so it’s important that the human being that dispatches that person’s home to serve them does so in a really extraordinary way. But then you drill into like what makes extraordinary service. It’s, it’s things like listening and communication and they’re the, the, the skills that show up regardless of someone’s educational credentials that if you screen on can really unlock extreme productivity because it’s, it’s allotting the right person in the right seat at the right time.
Steve Lee: That’s right. That’s right. I would say part of that, why, um, I’m going back to my, as I said, like. Yeah. Um, the [00:21:00] study of perspiration inspiration, but sometimes you have to perspire and perspiring means like some of some of these like durable skills, right? And apply to enable, I think are really, really, really, really important.
Steve Lee: And I think that’s what you guys with us with you, you’re able to unlock, right? You unlock, right? For employers, workers who have the mindset and the behaviors and the skills. Right. To be able to succeed. That’s a very hard combination and you guys do it brilliantly. That’s what we’re trying to do. Right.
Steve Lee: At some level of scale, it’s really difficult. It’s really, really hard. Uh, and it’s hard to convince employers to take, you know, take some of the risk on that. Um, but, uh, you guys do a brilliant.
Wyatt Smith: We’d love to keep, keep ragging on great employers. So other employers you’re working with who you do think are really good, emblematic leaders here.
Wyatt Smith: Who would you call out?
Steve Lee: Uh, I, I, I call, I call her a Verizon. Uh, we have a really good relationship with them. It’s part of what we call our Urban Learning [00:22:00] Program, where sometimes, especially for youth, we’re serving more and more youth, sometimes you just need the sort of entry level job, right? Now, I will say all of our jobs pay at least living wage, right, based on the MRIT Living Wage Calculator.
Steve Lee: So, it’s not just any job, it’s living wage. But what’s important for a company like Verizon is that, just like many other companies, they have education benefits. So if we can get them in the door, then we try to work with our user to take advantage of those benefits for Verizon, so they can, um, still own the company’s dime, right?
Steve Lee: So, and Verizon is a great partner of ours. We have some, we have a solar powered company called Sunrun, uh, who does some really amazing work on this. And I think, you know, sometimes it’s hard, like, like, you know, you don’t know where a user is in his or her life. And so we do our best to either get them a great job, if that’s possible, but sometimes it’s not possible sometimes, especially for the, if you ever get that to them, there’s this idea of like a gateway
Wyatt Smith: job,
Steve Lee: right?
Steve Lee: Start somewhere and [00:23:00] then take advantage, especially you can to upscale. But then once you, then we’re part of a, we’re having a digital warm hug is what you get in, how can we push you to then take advantage of those days, because sometimes those things by the wayside, it’s because life happens sometimes.
Steve Lee: And so that stuff is really important for us. It’s like this idea, but I
Wyatt Smith: love it. So you just mentioned two really important macro macro needs for the country, one of them around broadband and broadband expansion and the Verizon is a massive leader and a second around the electrification transition and how we think about people with the right skills to help power where we get our sources of energy.
Wyatt Smith: So I love to learn from you about both. So like on the first one, right now we have so few people that have the right skills to be able to both install. You broadband lines and fiber to then think through the connectivity for that. There’s a low voltage cabling problem to be, to be solved. A leader like Verizon has lots of capacity.
Wyatt Smith: They also operate through a lot of subcontractors in [00:24:00] every market they serve. How are they thinking about it? What’s, what’s their strategy? How are you seeing it play out?
Steve Lee: It’s a good question. Uh, I don’t know. I don’t know exactly how Verizon is thinking about it, but what I do know is that they need cablers, right?
Steve Lee: They need installers. They need, because as you mentioned, the need is vast. And so, you know, I think, and I think what they need, what they need in Verizon, this idea of mutual benefit, is workers who are ready, willing, and able. And I think this idea of willing is just as important as ready and able. So the willingness comes in where people have the proclivity to say, you know what, I’m going to do a good job of this.
Steve Lee: Now, they have to be ready and able at the same time, but I feel like for companies like Verizon, sometimes because, you know, turnover is a big deal, This idea of willingness and mindset and behavior is really important, and I think that’s what’s been, you know, I think [00:25:00] important to our relationship is that we’re hopefully bringing workers who have the willingness part to really sort of be on time.
Steve Lee: All right, some of the things that we talk about in durable skills and also have the ability to do the job. Um, so, from my side of the horizon, it’s ideas like willingness. Is it as important as anything else? Um, on the solar panel, I think it’s the same thing on the solar panel stuff is that, again, ready, willing, and able.
Steve Lee: This idea, it’s a hard job. It’s actually really hard. Um, and so if you have the mindset that I’m going to do it, I can do the job well, I can make a decent living, and this is a job that it’s not going to go way down the road. And so I think both for Verizon and Sunrun, Yeah. These jobs aren’t going away.
Steve Lee: They’ll be around for decades, if not centuries. And so I think that also sort of feeds in songs. So that’s my sense of those two companies.
Wyatt Smith: There’s a [00:26:00] lot to learn from both, uh, kudos to the teams that you’re partnering with for, for leaning in and innovating on it. That’s awesome.
Steve Lee: There is.
Alex Hudgens: I want to know a story, Steve, that jumps out to you.
Alex Hudgens: One of your favorite stories about an individual who. SkillUp has helped place in one of these upward mobility jobs. Like who, you don’t have to say names, but who’s someone that comes to mind with a great story?
Steve Lee: Yeah, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you, um, we have, we do have a lot of stories. I think the, the ones that come up most to me, I mentioned earlier, this notion of intergenerational emplogaty, like that’s been some of that’s driven me for the past 15 years or so, and the stories I care about how the kids are doing better.
Steve Lee: Really resonant. And so we’ve had a few stories where we’ve got to be able to get a decent job for folks. And I said, you know, my kids, they’re, they do in the homework, right? They’re on their screens less, [00:27:00] right? They’re doing better in school. Like that gives joy to a parent. And so it’s not just about the job itself.
Steve Lee: It’s about how does that job translate into family? And those are the stories that most resonate with me is the impact on family as much as individual, particularly when it comes to kids. And we’ve had several stories, quite a few stories about that, about the impact on kids. And my, my hope is that when these kids become adults, that they’re better off than their parents.
Steve Lee: And I think that would be the case. And that, those are stories that most, most resonate with me. Is the future of our country based on what we’re doing now.
Wyatt Smith: That’s awesome. There’s a, there’s a lot of joy in that work. There’s a lot of joy in that work.
Steve Lee: There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of joy in that work.
Steve Lee: And, um, um, I mean, nothing gives me more joy.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah.
Steve Lee: Right. Then, then purchasing what someone used to tell me when I was in [00:28:00] philanthropy. If you’re poor at three, you’re gonna be poor at three. That’s what she said. And she’s right. I wanna flip that dynamic, Wyatt and Alex. Right? I wanna use a different term.
Steve Lee: Right? That’s my goal. I don’t, I never accomplish it. But that’s what drives, that’s what gives me joy.
Alex Hudgens: That’s a hard stat, or phrase. I don’t, I don’t like that. I don’t like it either. I’m glad we have people like you working on that. And vice versa.
Wyatt Smith: It’s a big mission. Let’s do our lightning round. There’s some questions we love asking our guests to learn from them. Um, and it starts with, uh, something that for people that spend a lot of time in libraries, it’s a really good question to pass.
Alex Hudgens: Thank you for the tee up, Wyatt. We want your book recommendations.
Alex Hudgens: You can see about a tenth, not even a tenth of my collection behind me right now. I love a book, correct?
Wyatt Smith: And as you know, Steve, we’re very focused on using our software to help influence behavior. And so we’re super interested in a book that’s changed your [00:29:00] behavior in some way. So like after you read it, you had a different perspective on things and there was some change in your life that you made as a
Steve Lee: result.
Steve Lee: Can I flip the screen a little bit? A
Alex Hudgens: song, our first song, yes.
Steve Lee: The book is a business book. You guys have probably read it. Good to Great, right? By Jim Collins. I read that at business school. That sort of changed how I thought about how great companies are. And if you think about it, the thing that most the one line I remember is like, great leaders, it’s a window mirror, or the mirror window.
Steve Lee: When things are going really well, they never look in the mirror, they look outside the window. For the team, right? But when things are going badly, they look in the mirror. They never look outside the window. That’s always resonated with me. To me, that’s a sign of a great leader. It’s the humility to say, things are going right, let’s thank the team.
Steve Lee: Things are going bad, you point at yourself. So that, that really resonated with me when I was, when I was young. So here’s a song recommendation. When I was [00:30:00] young, I remember I was in a, I played basketball the other day, right? On the basketball court, with a boom, boom box. Boom box, you’re probably too young to remember the boom box, right?
Steve Lee: And all of a sudden the song came on, which was like, holy crap. I can’t, the song was spelled like Team Spirit, right? And so I listen, I’m like, what is going on with my life? And so I run home, right? And I listen, and I turn the MTV on back in the day, and I just sit there like, and all of a sudden the song comes up, I’m like watching Kurt, like, doing his thing, flying hair.
Steve Lee: And the first thing I thought about is like, You know what? He’s different. He’s a different dude. And you know what? I think it’s okay to be different. And if you know anything about the Asian culture, being different is really hard. Because there are norms, and there’s culture, and there’s strictures, and parents expectations, all that kind of stuff, right?
Steve Lee: And I, I lived, I lived much of my life on, on those expectations. [00:31:00] But I always thought it’s cool to be different. And so, you know, I was, I was a corporate lawyer for a little while. I had left, right, to do a startup thing. I was in consulting. I left to do philanthropy because I felt like it was okay to be different, do something different.
Steve Lee: And that always that it all comes from that song. I can believe it or not, that song like literally changed my life. Because it’s okay, it’s okay to be different. And I was like, you know, I was a young kid at the time. So, the book is Good to Great and the song, It Smells Like Tin, has literally transformed my life.
Steve Lee: I don’t think I, honestly, I’m not sure I would be here sitting with you amazing folks if it wasn’t for Kurt Cobain. I can trace it back to Kurt Cobain. I kid you not. That’s just a true story.
Alex Hudgens: And an influential figure.
Steve Lee: Indeed. No doubt. So something for me.
Alex Hudgens: And very specifically. That’s great. That’s our first song rec.
Alex Hudgens: Maybe that becomes part of our curriculum. What? I don’t know. I don’t know. One of my favorite questions in [00:32:00] our not so lightning lightning round is what is something you’d go back and tell, you know, let’s say your 16 year old self. And then, I like to add, what is something that you think you’re 95 year old self would tell you.
Alex Hudgens: Ah,
Steve Lee: okay. The 16 year old self, um, I’d probably say two things. One, I’m gonna go back to basketball because I need basketball there, right? I remember Larry Bird, who I just adored when I was young. He said he knew when he was good, when the game slowed down for him. Because batting can be very frenetic. And when the game slowed down, everything became easier for him.
Steve Lee: I mean, Larry Bird, right? Most people can’t do that. And the reason I say that is for 16 year olds, right? Um, take it slowly. You’re not going to change the world at 16, right? Learn, be curious, [00:33:00] do different things in life, take it slowly. Ultimately you’ll get to a place at some point where joy happens, right?
Steve Lee: But take it slowly. But the other thing I’ll say at the same time, this may sound contrary, but Is, is take some risks, right? Because when you’re 16 to 25, right? You can take risks. And I remember, I’ll share another story with you guys. I was going from a corporate lawyer to the startup. And I was struggling.
Steve Lee: Because, you know, my parents were like, Hey, you’re an Asian kid, right? Don’t do that, right? Kind of thing. And others were saying, I talked to a law partner, right? It’s like, See, you would be a freaking idiot, like, not to try. You’re like, you know, 23, Like, try it. If it doesn’t work, you can always go back into something, right?
Steve Lee: I was like, oh, that’s the kind of mentor I need, like, take some risks, right? So I would say, take it slowly, but take some risks at the same time. My 95 year old self would probably say, [00:34:00] and this is something I struggle with personally, which is,
Steve Lee: This idea of like, sort of, um, like, what can I best say it like the personal lives that we live, like we lead. And our relationships matter a whole lot more than anything else. And what I, I, I struggle with saying that because I accuse myself of being too involved with the work, right? And again, I feel like that’s my Asian culture.
Steve Lee: I don’t know, like, Asian culture is weird, man. Like, it’s just, it’s, it’s heavy. And it’s always in there.
Alex Hudgens: American culture. American culture, right? Um, but it’s, I, I, I, I
Steve Lee: don’t know. I struggle. I say it’s like breaking apart from that and to having like meaningful relationships and it’s a struggle. And I, in my 90 percent of self would say to me now, you know, break apart from that, like, you know, [00:35:00] other things matter much more, but I’ll be honest.
Steve Lee: It’s hard. It’s hard to break away from that. And so. I think that’s what 95 is. I just need to listen to my 95 year old self, to be
Alex Hudgens: honest. Listen, my 95 year old self has me out here doing all kinds of risks, even well past 25. So, I don’t know. I like that. I appreciate you sharing that, though. That’s a I have struggled with that and still do sometimes, and I think that’s very real.
Alex Hudgens: Especially when you’re on mission for something So big. Wyatt and I were just talking about, you know, in some ways, when you’re up against a massive problem that you’re trying to solve, there’s endless work to do. And so how do you I don’t know about the word balance, but how do you do it all? How do you still have relationships?
Alex Hudgens: Yeah. I go back to Larry Bird,
Steve Lee: you know, make the game slow down. So when things slow down, then you can see like Larry Bird, you can see the periphery, like he had eyes in the back of his head, like I really believe so. [00:36:00] And so for me, like the eyes are like, you know, family relationships in the back, I just need to make sure I like slow down, um, and I’m not quite there yet.
Steve Lee: To be honest.
Alex Hudgens: Any productivity hacks?
Steve Lee: Oh, that’s such a good question. You know what I really like? Have you guys used Loom, the video platform? I really like it. The reason I like Loom is it’s easy to use. But I’d like it because when you send a Loom video, it’s just different. Like people are expecting something, their email, or, or, or, you know, their tech, whatever, it’s just different.
Steve Lee: Uh, and it just takes a second or two, right? You say a few words, right? Over a minute. And you can convey a lot through facial expressions, right? And how you make your tone and all that kind of stuff. You just can’t get, right, the email or even text or even on the phone because you’re visually there with my ugly mom, right?
Steve Lee: And so I really like Loom. I use them a lot. Like, in fact, I’m going to start using it with you guys, rather than send email, I’m going to, I’m going [00:37:00] to loom you guys and say, Hey, why announce this is what I need, but I’ll send a video loom. So that, that, that, that’s, that’s my hack, if you will.
Wyatt Smith: I love it. All right, cool.
Wyatt Smith: I’ll loom with you anytime, Steve. Let’s do it. We’ll loom back and forth. Yeah. Uh, if you’re giving advice to us, an owner of a small business out there that’s trying to overcome this labor shortage. And they’re thinking through the best way to do it. What would be your counsel?
Steve Lee: I’d say one, there, there’s a lot of awesome talent out there.
Steve Lee: Um, and there’s a lot of awesome talent that’s being trained and supported by awesome organizations out for the rest of the country. Like UpSmith and like others.. Um, that’s a message that often falls on deaf ears. Right. And so the second message I would say, because I feel like sometimes, You folks need to take a risk, okay?
Steve Lee: I feel like this idea of like a risk, uh, is, you know, take, take a calculated [00:38:00] risk, if you want to call, if you want to call it that, because nothing in life is going to be perfect, right? Maybe you’ve never hired a non degree holder before. But I’m telling you, upsmiths of the world are providing awesome talent, right, that’s going to be ready to go in the handle.
Steve Lee: Take that, take that, a calculated risk, don’t take a risk, simply a calculated risk. Because the end result is going to be something really positive. And here’s the data from upsmith that says that the risk is worth it. So take, take a, take a calculated risk with us. We’ll be there, we’ll be your partner hand in hand, like we’re not going to go away.
Steve Lee: And we’re going to have, we’re going to do this with mutual benefit in mind. Right. So if it’s not working, it’s not mutual beneficial for you, then you let us know that we’ll, we’ll change. And so that’s what I always say. Calculated risk one, there’s talent out there. Take a calculator risk we’ll do with mutual benefit and we will be supportive in your efforts to hire a folks that, um, that might be [00:39:00] different than who you typically hire.
Alex Hudgens: That’s good. I need about two more hours because I have 27 million additional questions. Can I, okay, one more in our quote lightning round, because we haven’t actually gotten this with anyone else yet. Do you have a morning routine? Because I am all up in arms about the conversation about morning routines.
Alex Hudgens: So yes or no, and if so, what is it and does it work?
Steve Lee: Um, I do, but it’s really boring. Like I get up, I drink coffee. I check in. I do work out most days, right? So that, but everyone does. It’s nothing new, right? I’m trying to say like,
Alex Hudgens: uh, everyone does not. Everyone does not. Can I, can I, can I
Steve Lee: share one thing that I do, which might be unique?
Steve Lee: Is that, um, in the past, like 30 or 40 years, in my opinion, there have been three mediums of art that have stood above the rest. One, one is the wire, [00:40:00] like the wire. Second is Nirvana. We talked about that. And third is Calvin and Hobbes. Okay. Calvin Hobbes is one of the greatest things of all time. And so one thing I do every morning, Alex, is I read a Calvin Hobbes strip, because it brings me joy.
Steve Lee: This idea of a six year old, this pet tiger being a snarky and just, just, just like trying to convince his parents to do, I don’t know, evil things. So we’re trying to convince his babysitter that he, that, or his babysitter’s boyfriend that he should not date the babies. It’s just pure gold. Right. It brings me joy.
Steve Lee: And so I do read the Calvin and Strip, one strip. By the way, it’s one of the hardest to like, I think about people who do amazing. The idea of creating joy and laughter in four strips is like the most difficult thing I can imagine to do. Right. And it is the most, and just Calvin, I just, I can’t speak more highly [00:41:00] of it.
Alex Hudgens: We’ve come full circle. Now I fully understand how you are tapped into joy every day. Calvin Hobbes. Because of your morning routine that involves Calvin Hobbes. Yes, it
Steve Lee: does. It does. It does.
Alex Hudgens: No further questions, Your Honor. What, what have you?
Wyatt Smith: We’ve tapped, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve Untapped with UpSmith. The secret.
Wyatt Smith: Steve has it. That’s it. Steve, thank you for your friendship for, for us. Thank you for being such an encouraging partner in the work. Uh, we’re, we’re grateful to be part of the coalition and excited for the great work
Steve Lee: you guys do. I’m honored to be on this podcast. I’m honored to be your, hopefully, friends, friends and colleagues.
Steve Lee: More to come on bringing joy into people’s lives. So thank you both
