John Wilson: [00:00:00] That’s our entire recruitment strategy. Like, hey, you’re the top guy at your current shop. What if I told you that you’re in the middle or lower quartile here? And you’re driven, and you’re ambitious, and you want to prove that you can be the best. Well, the best is here. Like we’re outperforming your current company three to one.
John Wilson: How about you come over here and like, see what it’s like to work with winners.
Wyatt Smith: Hello and welcome back to Untapped with UpSmith. We’re really thrilled today to have John Wilson as our guest. Uh, John is the CEO of the Wilson Companies, uh, the host of his own podcast, Owned and Operated, which you should check out. It is a [00:01:00] great podcast. Great survey of some ways to build awesome businesses.
Wyatt Smith: John, thanks for joining us.
John Wilson: Yeah. Thanks for having me on and appreciate the plug.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah, well, it’s a, it’s a really awesome podcast you built and I think a great way for people to learn about how to make an impact. So kudos on what you’re doing.
John Wilson: Yeah. And it was, uh, I was talking about this with someone the other day.
John Wilson: I’m not going to. Really plug it here, but it was, I was talking to some of the other day about it and they called me an industry, an industry influencer for plumbing, HVAC and electric. And I was like, that’s kind of odd. Uh, cause I, I don’t know that I think of myself that way, but I think the thing that people find impactful is that we’ve been openly sharing our journey on really anywhere from LinkedIn to Twitter, to a newsletter for five years now.
John Wilson: So like, you can see the decisions. From when we were a two and a half million dollar company to now a 26 million company, you can actually watch the decisions being actively made, [00:02:00] uh, as that transition happened, which I think people seem to find interesting.
Wyatt Smith: I certainly think it’s really cool. I’m really excited to have you aboard to, to learn and to, you know, share some of those anecdotes.
Wyatt Smith: And a lot of folks that listen to our podcast are building companies and they’re thinking about strategies or things to deploy. We try to help them out. By giving access to some influencers, right? Folks that are doing cool things. Uh, and well on your way to the big goal of a hundred million dollar revenue business before long.
John Wilson: We’re chasing down a hundred million. Like our life depends on it. Uh, people ask why, and it’s, it’s probably just ego. Like I want to prove to myself that I can do it. I have nothing to prove to anybody else. I want to prove to myself that I can do it.
Wyatt Smith: Well, I have full
Wyatt Smith: confidence that you will. Um, yeah, let’s, let’s kick off just by sharing a little bit for folks that are not as familiar with your story, more on your background.
Wyatt Smith: And how you got to be focused on what you’re focused on.
John Wilson: Yeah. So, uh, I’m John Wilson. I’m a third [00:03:00] generation plumber in Northeast Ohio. Uh, so in 1958, my grandfather, Ralph started Wilson Plumbing and Heating. Uh, $500 in a pickup truck is the, uh, anecdote there. Uh, my dad bought it in the mid 80s. He grew it a little bit on the back of boilers and bath remodels.
John Wilson: And then, uh, I bought it in 2016. And at that time, it was about a million dollars of sales and eight people on the team. Uh, from then, um, We’ve obviously grown a lot, some of that I will take credit for, uh, some of it I was at the right place at the right time, uh, the trades went through a really big, um, sort of disruption in the mid 2010s, where, you know, Google PPC became a thing, LSAs became a thing, ServiceTitan became a thing, Reviews became a thing.
John Wilson: So suddenly an upstart like me could dethrone incumbent players, which is exactly what happened. Uh, we [00:04:00] passed our largest competitors like they were standing still. So, um, it was a really interesting time to come into that space. And I know a lot of people that have built really big businesses since then.
John Wilson: Uh, so we’re plumbing, HVAC, electric, residential service or replacement. We’ve acquired. Nine other brands, uh, working on our 10th right now. And, uh, we’ve grown a lot through just hiring, marketing, um, and acquiring. So we’re actively figuring it out every day and at, at we’ll wrap up around 26 this year and we, uh, it’s still feels
John Wilson: early.
Wyatt Smith: That’s great. Take me back in time. So you’re, you’re, you’re a kid, you’re working for your dad. Presumably, what was that like? How did it impact you?
John Wilson: Yeah. Uh, so I worked, um, I always liked money, uh, not as, uh, I always liked the independence of having money. Uh, so. I would help her on the [00:05:00] shop or I started working like during the summer.
John Wilson: I would work All day like 40 hours a week or whatever Uh from I think it was 10 on because it was fifth grade Um, the projects were pretty low lift So it’d be like hey, can you move this pile to to this pile or can you sweep the floor? You know that that type of thing. Um, I did learn quite a bit though.
John Wilson: I was able to repipe My first, uh, home at 16, so that was fun. Uh, we were on a mission trip and I was able to help them figure out the plumbing. Uh, So yeah, that obviously shaped me a lot. Most of it was, you know, easy access to a job. I’m not immune to the fact that I took over a family business. So there’s some nepotism there.
John Wilson: Uh, but yeah, in high school, uh, I helped out a lot, a lot around the shop. I went on jobs with some of the plumbers, um, and at 18, I had a working knowledge of plumbing. A very elementary, [00:06:00] uh, knowledge, but I had a working knowledge. And by 19, I was running my own truck. So I was a fully fledged plumber, came into your house, figured out how to solve problems.
John Wilson: Uh, so yeah, that, that early, you know, you asked about the sort of what it was like. It was helpful. Um, I exited high school with a trade. Yeah. So it was
John Wilson: great.
Wyatt Smith: You were well on your way at that point. Was it always your plan?
John Wilson: Um, I, uh, when I first graduated high school, I went to a school for graphic design and I was a, you know, in, in my mind, my mom still asks about that.
John Wilson: I was actually at her house over the weekend and she was like, what if you’d become an artist? And I was like, mom, I have 140 employees. I feel like I’ve done okay. But she’s like, I wish. Um, And, uh, and [00:07:00] I, I like to think that, uh, you know, the, the business is my canvas to be creative, but, um, yeah, so I, it was not always the plan.
John Wilson: I went to school originally for graphic design. I actually had to drop out pretty early on cause I had some health concerns that took about a year and a half to work through my, uh, life. And then, uh, I went back to school again for HVAC. Uh, I’m not very good at school. I, as school. Wasn’t really interesting to me.
John Wilson: So I dropped out of that again, that one was just cause I wasn’t very interested. And I ended up going to school for a third time for about two and a half years. I didn’t finish any programs, but it was for accounting. Uh, it was a local community college, cost me about 6, 000 out of pocket. Uh, but you would be amazed what.
John Wilson: A community college can do for you. Uh, so it was really helpful. Gave me a working foundation and how to do everything we do today.
Wyatt Smith: Very cool. And what about your path to, to [00:08:00] leadership? So the decision to purchase the business from your dad in 2016, was that one that happened all at once? Was it, was it baked in for a period of time?
Wyatt Smith: How did that play through?
John Wilson: Yeah. So when I was in my, uh, when I was in my early, so first off, I bought the business young, uh, I like to think I’m still young, but it depends on the day. Um, I bought the business when I was 25. It’s not because I was brilliant or anything, uh, you know, amazing about me. My dad happens to be 40 some years older than I am.
John Wilson: So he was looking for an exit as I was looking for entrance. So he was in his mid sixties, preparing to retire, and he was trying to figure out the transition for his business. So, uh, right place, right time. Um, so when I went to school for accounting, I was 21. And I was working as a plumber during the day and I would go to school at night, figuring out how to do this.
John Wilson: Uh, and when I originally went, the, the idea was actually to get out of the business. I was feeling pretty [00:09:00] unfulfilled, uh, as a technician in a truck. I didn’t feel like I was using my Uh, brain, the way that I would have liked to. I like to be challenged. I like to be intellectually stimulated. I like puzzles.
John Wilson: I like games. Um, and I didn’t feel like I was getting, uh, that from what I was doing. So, and I also felt pretty trapped, cause by that point I had dropped out of college, uh, twice. Soon to be three times and, um, so I went to school for accounting and that was, that was sort of like my ticket to step out of the family business.
John Wilson: My dad and I were not talking about acquiring it at that time. Uh, I got married at 23 and, um, my wife’s amazing, still married, 10 years later. Uh, Got married at 23 and, um, sort of in that process, I started to really get ready for whatever the next step of my life looked like. And from going to school for accounting, I had a better understanding of how a business [00:10:00] should or could look.
John Wilson: And I started to see what opportunity lied in front of me. Um, I mean, You know, looking back, obviously I didn’t know anything, but, um, I started and I sure gave it a shot so that that seemed to be the more important part. But, um, yeah, was not the original plan. We ended up there. We started talking about buying the business when I was 23 and I actually started running the company when I was 24.
John Wilson: Which I acknowledge is young and it’s not because I’m brilliant. I was, I was at the right place at the right time.
Wyatt Smith: Well, very different company, eight techs to now having over 140. So, so certainly different organization today than it was 10 years ago. And so I’m curious about if that happened, brick by brick all at once, was there an inflection moment to take us back in the journey?
Wyatt Smith: What’s that been like for you?
John Wilson: Yeah, uh, it was slow, and then all at [00:11:00] once. Heh heh heh. Um, yeah, it’s, it takes a different skill set, and I’m learning every day. Uh, so, I’m not, um, I, I think it’s, uh, this isn’t like a false humility, like, I really have such a long way to go. On leadership and anybody that works directly with me would, would tell you the same thing.
John Wilson: Uh, I am, uh, I have so much more to learn and what has, what has been exciting is the further we get as a company and the bigger and better hires we’re bringing, we’re able to bring it to the organization, uh, they almost coach you back, which is very helpful. Um, because a decade ago, I was literally fixing toilets.
John Wilson: So, you know, you don’t come out of the womb knowing how to run a 30 million organization. Um, and even running one, I would say, arguably, I don’t know [00:12:00] how to run one. So, uh, they really coach you back, which is, which is helpful. Um, so as you bring on, uh, team leaders or executives in HR or accounting or inside operations, You learn a lot from them, which has been the most impactful over the last few years.
John Wilson: Um, but the journey, uh, was, you know, felt fast at the time and as a percentage, it was fast, but now looking back, it’s like that was, that was not that, that was not crazy. Um, We did about a million the first year, 2016. We did, uh, maybe 1.6 or 1.7 the second year, so 70 percent growth felt like a lot at the time. Um, in early 2018 we bought a business that was about to go bankrupt.
John Wilson: And we, uh, basically doubled the team size, which was a pretty big adjustment for me. Um, you know, [00:13:00] I went from having 11 employees to 27 overnight, and I was 25 or 26, and nearly everyone was twice my age. And suddenly I had managers, which I had, you know, I’d never had a manager before. Uh, so that was a really big adjustment in my, uh, professional life of learning how to work through other people in order to get the results that I wanted.
John Wilson: Um, we grew, so that year we did about 2.9. Uh, that was 2018. 2019 we grew a little bit more. A lot of it was just learning curves, like, how do you work with managers? How do you begin to market? How do you hire people? We had never, I had never really done that before. Um, I tend to, I tend to learn by, uh, trial through fire.
John Wilson: Uh, so 2019 we grew, I think we did 3.4. 2019 and Looking back now. It is kind of funny because I I thought that we [00:14:00] had hit the cap of our mark market at You know three and a half million dollars Which obviously we didn’t but you just you just don’t know what you don’t know. So in 2020 convinced that I’d hit the cap of our market we Expanded into a new market, which was Cleveland, which were just, we were just south of Cleveland and we had never done Cleveland before, and we added on an auxiliary service, which is water remediation.
John Wilson: Uh, obviously I was not right about the cap of our market. Um, you know, our, our market could comfortably host a hundred million dollar brand. So, you know, we are 3% of of our cap. Um, but that was a big learning curve because in 2020 we added a new location. I had to figure out how to, you know, drive brand in a market that had never heard of me before.
John Wilson: Uh, we had to figure out how to add a new [00:15:00] trade, which was, uh, WaterMitt. And we had bought a few other very small brands, um, during this time, maybe three or four. Uh, so that was still the slow part. I think we finished 2020, um, maybe four and a half million, maybe a little bit higher. Uh, the big, the big growth came later.
John Wilson: So in 2021, we acquired three businesses, uh, mostly in Cleveland and the business tripled. Within about five months, we went from 32 or 33 employees to 105 from June or July of ’21 to December of ’21. And, uh, basically every 90 days we did new acquisition. And, uh, obviously as you can imagine, that was a lot.
John Wilson: Uh, we were still very juvenile. Um, 30, 32 employees, 33 employees. You don’t really have an accounting team yet. You don’t have a marketing team. You sure as hell don’t have a HR team, [00:16:00] um, and you’re just a couple guys trying to figure it out. So that’s what we were, uh, I was blessed to have really amazing team members, many of which are still here today.
John Wilson: That helped me, like, help me to figure it out. Um, but that was a really big learning curve where as you’d expect everything broke. And suddenly we had to go from this sort of small, you know, one market, 30 some employee, uh, company to figure, figuring out, um, it felt a lot like 2018 when I learned how to lead leaders.
John Wilson: This was leading leaders who led leaders. So now there was a, another degree of separation, um, and the next two years was just digesting. So we still grew a lot. Uh, I think we ended at 7 million in ’21, 13 million in ’22, 18 million in ’23, and 26 or so this year. So, we were, we have still been growing a lot, and a lot, and part of that is, we still [00:17:00] feel so early on this, because we had a decade of growth in like 36 months.
John Wilson: So there’s some things that would come naturally to other companies that, uh, that’s just still pretty new for us. Like, hey, we, we’ve only had a functioning accounting department as a 26 million company for, uh, maybe a year. And that would be generous. Uh, we’ve only had a functioning marketing department for a year.
John Wilson: Actually, we built it last, last August. Uh, so that’s why a lot of this feels early, is we have this ton of momentum. And, uh, we’re just figuring out the very basics of running a business.
Wyatt Smith: Where do you as a leader spend your time?
John Wilson: Uh, a few different core spots. So I have a couple teams that direct to me. And so I’ll tell you how I spend my time and I’ll tell you how I probably should spend my time.
John Wilson: Uh, the teams that direct to me are marketing, accounting, and [00:18:00] HR. My general feeling there is, uh, I want to control our growth through marketing. I want to hire the people when I want through HR and I have to be able to pay for it through accounting. So it’s just, I’m a simple guy. Um, so those teams direct to me, uh, something that I’m really, really working hard to get better at, and I’m not doing a good job of right now.
John Wilson: It, which is where I should be spending my time. I should be spending my time. Like helping accelerate our leaders, uh, development. And that’s something that’s a place that I’m really falling short. I’m falling short mainly because I’m, I’m still working to prioritize it. Uh, just in the last 18 months, we’ve added a whole line of frontline leaders, which has changed our leadership structure quite a bit.
John Wilson: And when you go from a three tier work chart to a four, and now we’re at five, so I have four layers of separation between me and 90 percent of the organization, [00:19:00] um, it’s, it’s challenging to figure out like how you fit in that. Like, what should I be doing every day? How do I spend my time? Um, and so much of what I want to do because of how my brain works is I want to figure out the next big puzzle.
John Wilson: I want to figure out the next big challenge. I want to, you know, go break a paradigm or figure out the step shift, which has to happen through the teams that direct me, but we also have to communicate our vision and communicate our values. And build up our existing leadership that are frontline and senior leaders and whatever the best version of themselves they can be.
John Wilson: So that’s something that I’m working hard at getting better at. Um, because frankly, I’ve just fallen short.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah. I think all of us as leaders have this challenge around how do you empower people to be their best. And oftentimes you want to get pulled in and try to solve the problem. And.
John Wilson: Yeah,
Wyatt Smith: you can find yourself undermining the people that you brought on board to solve it in that, in that [00:20:00] respect.
Wyatt Smith: So, um, yeah,
John Wilson: and it, uh, it should, you know, we had, um, we had Tommy, uh, Mello on our show like a month ago. And he said something that, that like lives rent free in my head now. And it was the, the hustler had to die and the leader had to be born. And that runs through my head almost every day now, because I’ll start to do something.
John Wilson: Yeah. Where it’s like, scrappy. And I’m like, yeah, like, I like this. I like this sort of like, we’re still scrappy, we’re still whatever, you know, I can, I can drive a cruise ship like a Sea Doo. Um, but the reality is like, part of that has to die. Like, we still have to push, we still have to get to the next level, we still have to do what we have to do.
John Wilson: Um, But I now am working to be the person that gets things done through layers of other people, which I find challenging.
Wyatt Smith: Would you mind sharing about a recent challenge you’ve had on helping to lead through people [00:21:00] and how you’ve been brokering your way through it?
John Wilson: Sure, yeah. Uh, So I would say an easy one at the moment, uh, one of our departments, uh, HVAC service has been struggling with their average ticket and conversion.
John Wilson: It’s no secret to anybody on that team. We talk about it a lot. Uh, HVAC, we’re, we were plumbing first and I just know plumbing the best. Um, cause that’s what I did. And, uh, eight electric runs like a plumbing department. So electric and plumbing are really similar. We have those pretty dialed in. Uh, HVAC is a totally different animal.
John Wilson: Um, that I’m not super familiar with. So, which is challenging because it produces 10 million of revenue a year. So it’s this department that, uh, it’s honestly a good test of, of leadership. I failed it, but it’s a good test, uh, of leadership where like, I really do have to rely on the people that I bring [00:22:00] in, in any layer of that department.
John Wilson: Cause I genuinely do not understand that trade. Like, I don’t know, I don’t have the answers on how to solve that. Um, and what I will frequently find myself doing. Is looking for the answers. Uh, and the reality is I’m not going to find them. Like I’ll find some variation of it, but my time is better suited to working with the amazing people that we hired that already have the answers in their heads.
John Wilson: Like they already know, like they know they have 20 years of learning that, like, what am I going to get from a podcast or a blog or like anything, uh, that’s better than the person that’s been doing it for 20 years and they already know the steps. Um, So I’d say that that’s an example, pretty easily, of hey, I, I want to go solve it, and it’s, I’ve, um, I’m not trying to be sort of generic, but [00:23:00] the ‘Who Not How’ book also lives pretty rent free in my head, of like, hey, this is a problem, and I have a natural, I have like a bias for action, right, like, ran a company at 24, bought it, Like I, I just tend to do things that I think are the right decision.
John Wilson: And, uh, so that means, and I like challenges and puzzles. So that means when I’m presented with a challenge, my first, like my brain immediately unpacks it. I want to solve it. I want, like, I just like to do that. And, um, what I’m attempting to do depends on the day, if I’m good at it is, uh, instead of me solving it, like, how do I identify the right person to solve this problem?
John Wilson: Cause they will do it better. Like, because of the demands on my time, because of the demands on my attention, I am not capable of putting in the time that this problem needs, which like, the, the difference between doing it well and badly is probably [00:24:00] 3 million a year. So like, it’s a big enough problem to like, Hey, maybe we should figure this out.
John Wilson: And my first inclination is just to go solve it when I instead need to be either leaning on the people that I’ve already brought in to solve it better than I currently am, maybe removing roadblocks, figuring out what the gap is, like, why is it still an issue? Uh, or bringing on leaders that are capable of solving that.
John Wilson: Does that make sense?
Wyatt Smith: Well, it’s such an important, it definitely does. And this is an important problem and one that frankly, I talk to business owners every day and it’s a pretty recurring challenge. So, so you go to your leaders of your HVAC service department, you say, you’re the expert here. I want to really empower you.
Wyatt Smith: What do they tend to diagnose is what’s going on to contribute to those lower average tickets, lower conversion rates.
John Wilson: Yeah. I mean, anytime there’s a team that’s struggling, it’s, There’s only a few, like, core problems. You either have a bad culture inside that team, [00:25:00] and that, there’s a few different things that can come, you know, that can start that.
John Wilson: Uh, you haven’t had enough training, or the leader of the team is the one holding it back. So, that’s really it. Like, we can overcomplicate it as much as we want, but like, when I’m looking at a team that’s struggling, That’s, those are the three things I start with.
Wyatt Smith: And in drilling into the training element of it, what do you typically see as the, the gap
Wyatt Smith: where do people fall
Wyatt Smith: short?
John Wilson: Yeah, I would normally say not enough. And then if you are doing it enough, it’s just not transparent enough. So, uh, in March of this year, we were having an issue with conversions inside our electrical service department. That department is about a 5 million a year department. That’s important. You know, it matters.
John Wilson: Their conversions matter. And, [00:26:00] uh, we’ve, we just were converting at about half the rate. So we want to see a 65 percent conversion rate we were seeing in the mid thirties. So obviously pretty big gap. And, um, so we’re, we’re trying to diagnose the problem and I’m like, okay, the leader, like, this is not the leader.
John Wilson: Uh, the leader has buy in, the team, it’s not the leader. I think we’re good there. Next we look at the team. The team’s bought in, like they’re winning, uh, they’re excited, they’re excited to be here, they’re thankful for the opportunity, like the culture in that team is great, it still is, it’s an awesome team.
John Wilson: So it’s like, okay, it’s training, so like, let’s take a look at the training. And what we find is we’re doing one training a week, and it’s more of a lecture style training, instead of like a, anything else, really. Um, so what they started doing was they created some transparency around training. They would.
John Wilson: Crack open [00:27:00] an invoice from yesterday and talk about what we could have done better. They would listen to recordings, uh, of that call so they knew what to do better. Um, and they would give each other feedback. Cause, and you can’t really do that without a good culture in the team and a strong leader. Uh, because you have to, you know, you have to sort of trust that you’re not going to beat each other up, but like, Hey, yeah, here’s my call yesterday.
John Wilson: Uh, here’s what I feel like I did really good. Here’s what I did feel like I did bad. What do you guys think? How could I have improved? Um, and their conversions went back to what they should in like two weeks.
Wyatt Smith: One thing I also hear you saying there is like the reinforcement of the training.
John Wilson: Yeah.
Wyatt Smith: So it’s the way you get reminded of this is what good looked like.
Wyatt Smith: And
John Wilson: yeah,
Wyatt Smith: the affirmation that comes with the positive.
John Wilson: Frequency has been a big learning for us. Uh, it is really tempting to solve a problem and move on. And, uh, you, you have to like fight that, [00:28:00] uh, typically is like the leader. You have to fight that even if you’re leading other leaders. So, uh, that was, that was a challenge because, um, they fixed their conversion problem and the first inclination was, oh, okay, we fixed it.
John Wilson: So let’s do less training. It’s like, no, no. No, we will have that problem again in 60 days if we do less training, like we have to continue doing more training. This has to become a part of what we do. Uh, so that was a test for, um, like daily training, which we’ve been doing ever since across all of the teams and the impact has been huge.
Wyatt Smith: Would you mind sharing some about how you invest in technology? And again, in pursuit of that goal, reinforcing training and training and coaching.
John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. So our system, our system is a business is built around, uh, training and then accountability of that training. So we’re going to train [00:29:00] on something.
John Wilson: Our software basically tells us everything that could ever happen. And then we hold accountable to what we said. We wanted, and what you said you would do so that technology, we’re constantly looking for new, different ways to do that. Um, and it depends on the team in call center. We’re, we’re using, uh, like an AI coach, um, that listens to every call and gives you, Hey, you know, here’s your rubric for a hundred percent graded call.
John Wilson: Here’s what you missed. Here’s what you did. Great. You know, let’s, let’s iterate. Uh, we have something really similar for our field professionals. So it listens to every call. It records a lot of the interactions. So then you can, you know, turn around and coach on it. Um, our CRM offers a lot of transparency into what we’re doing.
John Wilson: Uh, most of that’s outcome based. So, Hey, you had, it’s like very qualitative or quantitative. Whereas, uh, Because you have to hit both, if I didn’t say that, but [00:30:00] like, it has to be measurable, but in order to be, like, it has to be good, and it has to be measurable. So, if I said, hey, you have to give three options on every sales call, you could give three really terrible options, right?
John Wilson: Let’s, Yeah, so that’s what happens. So, if you have to manage and train to behavior, which is quality, and outcome, which is quantity. So, uh, we try to cover both of those sides with our training. So, inside Call Center, we know how many calls you take a day. We know the number and percentage that you book. We have every metric in the world, but none of those metrics tell us quality, they just tell us the outcome.
John Wilson: So then, we have to get something on the pro So, okay, what inputs are you providing that make these the outputs? So maybe you’re not saying the greeting the way that we like it, or maybe you’re not asking them if they want their [00:31:00] healthy home, but it’s really hard to coach to outcome, because, like, what are the behaviors that are leading to that outcome?
John Wilson: So you have to cover both. Uh, So that’s our general philosophy. Uh, and pretty much every team has, we try to cover both. We, we always know the score. The score is sort of the easy one to find out the quality, the inputs that get you to that score.
Wyatt Smith: We talk to business owners all the time who are wrestling with that problem. How do you, how do you really measure quality with technology? What have you found is the most effective way to do so?
John Wilson: Record everything. It’s not complicated. It’s just expensive.
Wyatt Smith: And it is your expectation that your managers are reviewing those recordings, that the individual technicians are going back in and reviewing. How do you think about what to do with those recordings?
John Wilson: Uh, yeah, sort of all of the above. Like a bought in team member, someone that’s really living our values every day would want that [00:32:00] recording.
John Wilson: They would want to know the score and they would want to know how to, like, beat their score. So we shouldn’t need to urge you to want to be better.
Wyatt Smith: What do you find is your compliance rate right now? of the percentage of time people are recording.
John Wilson: Uh, it depends on how new the software is. Uh, for our field software, adoption rate has been a challenge.
John Wilson: A lot of that is, it’s weird. Uh, like it’s new, right? Like, hey, what do you mean it’s recording me? Um, so, I think right now we’re at 80%, but We’re 60 days in and it’s been steadily increasing. Um, and then call centers, just a hundred. That’s just not that complicated, right? Like phone calls have been recorded for a decade, decades.
John Wilson: Yep. Uh, but adoption rate in the field has been, uh, lower, but we’re getting there because as people start to see the benefit of, Oh, if I can fix my behavior, my sales will go up. [00:33:00] That’s it’s a pretty easy
John Wilson: conversation.
Wyatt Smith: I’m, I’m sure a lot of your listeners may be familiar with the behavioral psychology concept of the Hawthorne effect.
Wyatt Smith: Uh, my team and I we talk about it frequently, but it’s, it’s this concept that if you know you’re being recorded, it changes your behavior in part because you feel some anxiety about it or it’s difficult to be natural. And typically we see around the fifth occurrence of a recording, there’s a, a change in behavior where the Hawthorne effect bleeds off and the personnel feels much more natural and isn’t.
Wyatt Smith: It doesn’t have the same mental block around being recorded.
John Wilson: Yeah.
Wyatt Smith: And I’m curious if that shows up for your team too.
John Wilson: I think so. I think the first couple times it was just sort of like, Whoa, this is weird. Um, what do you mean? Uh, but then after that, like they got into it. Pretty quick. Again, the people that have adopted it early have seen the results.
John Wilson: Um, so, but yeah, those first few [00:34:00] times it’s more of a shock and awe. This is strange. Uh, how do I, you know, comport myself it being recorded. So yeah, we’ve, we’ve
John Wilson: seen
John Wilson: that too.
Wyatt Smith: Have you experimented with contest or competitions as ways of helping drive performance?
John Wilson: Not really. Uh, it’s something that we would like to do.
John Wilson: I’m personally not. Much of a contest person that doesn’t mean that I say no to them It’s just I’m never gonna think of them like for me It’s always the game and I always want to win. So like I don’t know like it’s a daily score So I just don’t really think of them, but I know that we’re they’re starting to work on a few membership sales pond contests and Like a few others that I think will be fun.
Wyatt Smith: Excited to hear how those
Wyatt Smith: play out.
Wyatt Smith: Thanks. So yeah, me too. Um, our, our mission [00:35:00] at UpSmith is, is to help, uh, attack the skilled worker shortage, something that is really inhibiting growth for companies like yours. It’s also, you know, creating blocks for people to pursue dignified, purposeful, you know, high pay work.
Wyatt Smith: And so I, I’m curious how it plays out for your team. What challenges. Are you encountering right now as it relates to skilled worker shortages and like, how do you overcome them?
John Wilson: Yeah, we, um, so skilled worker shortage, there’s layers, um, yeah, there’s layers to this. I think where you sit in the pyramid matters a lot for skilled worker shortage.
John Wilson: So, um,
John Wilson: obviously there’s a, I’ll start with obviously there’s a skilled worker shortage. We have never felt [00:36:00] restrained by that shortage. Uh, Now, the way that happens is that we’re at the top of the pyramid, so we’re winning, so we can offer the best pay, we can offer the best benefits, we are the employer of choice.
John Wilson: So, whereas the people that really feel the skill trade shortage are either in highly competitive markets, like the reality is there will always be high competition for the best talent, like regardless of a shortage or not shortage. very much. It’s always going to be competitive for the top, but the people that really feel it are the people at the bottom.
John Wilson: So what ends up happening is these companies become feeder companies, basically where, uh, people get in, they start their career and then that company probably doesn’t have benefits or it might not pay very well, or, [00:37:00] uh, their training sucks or their manager’s a jerk, you know, pick a thing. And, um, so they end up feeding up.
John Wilson: And they go upstream. So we see that a lot and we end up being the destination. So, uh, our goal and we’re pretty forward about it is we want to hire the best that the market has to offer, and we want to pay them really well to deliver results. And because of that, we don’t have much of an issue finding, uh, the people that we want.
John Wilson: So
John Wilson: now that said, if one day we’re not at the top of the pyramid, we’ll feel it more. Uh, but that hasn’t happened yet.
Wyatt Smith: I really appreciate that insight. I, I, it resonates with me. I think that high performers want to work at high performing companies and you’ll see it play out in every industry.
John Wilson: Yeah, winners want to work
John Wilson: with winners.
John Wilson: Like it’s not complicated, that’s our entire recruitment strategy. Like, Hey, do you want to work [00:38:00] with, like, Hey, you’re the top guy at your current shop. What if I told you that you’re in the middle or lower quartile here and you’re driven and you’re ambitious and you want to prove that you can be the best. Well, the best is here.
John Wilson: Like, we’re outperforming your current company 3 to 1. How about you come over here and, like, see what it’s like to work with winners? Because it is a totally different experience. Um Working with people who are driven and pushing and aiming to dethrone incumbents that it is working in a sleepy, you know, slow moving company.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah.
Wyatt Smith: It’s
Wyatt Smith: intoxicating. It makes you better. Yeah. It does better. And that’s what it comes across.
John Wilson: It’s sort of a, I realized it’s not like a very helpful answer. And in my mind, the thing to take away is, um, make yourself an employer that people would want to work at. And if you’re in doubt. Can you [00:39:00] easily hire?
John Wilson: Like that tells you, um, and it’s a lot of these minutes, like you don’t think of them as recruitment decisions, but they’re all, everything is signaling. So, maybe on LinkedIn, me having a podcast, you know how many people walk into that interview and they’ve already listened to stuff that I put out talking about our growth?
John Wilson: And it’s not just leaders, it’s, it’s like, I had a technician come the other day and just like, hey, I’ve heard every, uh, listened to the last 10 episodes, I read your newsletter, I’m not applying anywhere else. What does it take to work here? Uh, so that’s signaling. I’m signaling to the world, Hey, we’re going to a hundred million dollars.
John Wilson: Like we are people of achievement. Are you a person of achievement? Is this going to work for you? Uh, where we’re physically located. Like, are you located in a place that people would want to go to? Does the building look like somewhere that people would want to go? Do you invest in your facilities at all?
John Wilson: Or are you in a storage barn? Real question. Cause we’ve bought a ton of companies that run out of like a barn, like a storage barn. [00:40:00] Um, so it’s these things you don’t think about as decisions, like your location or like at our old location, people would actually drive up and leave. Like they wouldn’t come to the interview.
John Wilson: Like we would watch them pull into the parking lot, look around and turn around. These are recruitment decisions, like where you physically locate, what your building looks like when you pull up, uh, how do your trucks look? People want to drive new trucks. So all these like operational decisions are a recruitment and marketing, but recruitment.
Wyatt Smith: Wise words. Everything’s a decision about how you project the brand that you want to build. And yeah, the bat, the bat suddenly you want to put in the sky to have folks come over and join the team.
John Wilson: Yeah, you’re signaling.
Wyatt Smith: It jumps across. Totally. We’d love to close by asking a couple of lightning round questions.
Wyatt Smith: This has gone by really quickly and I, I’ve learned a ton. I’m sure our listeners have too. [00:41:00] I’d love to hear from you a book or something you’ve read that changed how you thought about something recently that you would say is worth a read for somebody to spend time on.
John Wilson: Uh, ‘Who Not How’. I referenced it earlier.
John Wilson: That really did. Um, like it, it’s like the title basically tells you, so you don’t even have to get that far, but I think for most people, uh, that have like this, like really strong bias for action, like I see a pro, like a firefighter mentality. This was really helpful for me. Um, and it, it helped me focus a lot more on the leader themselves instead of the problem.
John Wilson: And, uh, that’s helped take us up a couple notches. So ‘Who Not How’ big recommend
Wyatt Smith: Any productivity hacks, things that you do that help you produce more?
John Wilson: No, literally I’m the worst at that. I don’t have an assistant. Uh, I [00:42:00] barely check my email. Um, so actually maybe don’t check your email. You’d be amazed at what you could do if you don’t check your email.
John Wilson: Uh, no, not, not really. Um, I, I do think, uh, my, and I don’t know if I’m right or not. I’ll tell you in a couple of years. Um, but every time I think I’m overwhelmed and I need an assistant, what actually probably needs to happen is I need to be delegating more and I’m probably doing too much. So if I need a productivity hack, if I need to produce more than like, like I’m probably ignoring like my actual job, cause I don’t have anything to produce.
John Wilson: Like my job is to coach and enhance and lead. And if I have a productivity hack, then that means I’m likely doing someone else’s job.
Wyatt Smith: Delegate more, it sounds like,
Wyatt Smith: is the productivity hack that you would propose.
John Wilson: Yeah, I mean, every time I’m like, man, I’m overwhelmed, I need to go get an assistant, and we gotta solve this, and then I like look at what I’m doing, and I’m like, why am I doing this?[00:43:00]
John Wilson: Like, this is literally not my job. Like, I have people on payroll to do this. Uh, and it could be anything. It’s almost always problem solving.
Wyatt Smith: If you can go back in time to give some advice to your 25 year old self right after buying the business. What would you encourage younger John to do or think or what advice would you give him?
John Wilson: Yeah, I wouldn’t change a thing. Um, it has been the adventure of my life, taking a business from 1 to 26. And I’m sure it’s going to be an adventure to go to the next stage. Uh, but we, I have had to learn almost every lesson there is. In some of the most difficult ways possible. And I don’t know that I would be capable of leading the organization today if I didn’t get punched in the face a few times.
John Wilson: So I wouldn’t have changed the thing.
Wyatt Smith: And I love that. I think there’s a lot of things in the journey we learned that make us better for sure. And, uh, you learn more from the
Wyatt Smith: stumbles than
John Wilson: had to do my first layoffs at [00:44:00] 26 cause I made a mistake. I didn’t make that mistake again. Like we’ve, you cry yourself to sleep because you don’t know what’s going to happen the next day.
John Wilson: It gets dark. But, you learn. Figure it out. Yeah, I, I have always, uh, I’ve always liked the idea that there’s no one there to save you. And that the only way out is through and I don’t think I would have been able to take on that level of grit or the load of stress that comes with this every day without Years of training and the only way to train your stress and grit is by doing hard things.
Wyatt Smith: Amen
Wyatt Smith: Amen. Hard things make us better.
John Wilson: That’s right,
Wyatt Smith: John. Our listeners, I’m sure would love to learn more about what you’re building and know where to follow you or how to help you. Where can they find you?
John Wilson: Yeah. We’re all over the place. Uh, so we have a podcast ownedandoperated.com. It is mainly me rambling every Wednesday on how, [00:45:00] how the good or bad things going on in my, uh, plumbing and HVAC company.
John Wilson: Uh, we’re also on LinkedIn. I’m on Twitter at the Wilson Companies. We have a newsletter. But ownedandoperated.Com, you’ll find sort
John Wilson: of most of it.
Wyatt Smith: ownedandoperated.Com. I was, I was grateful to be invited on the podcast myself. So you’re, you’re generous to have us aboard. And I can attest that it is a great place to go and get smart about important things happening.
Wyatt Smith: across the industry and how to make your business better.
John Wilson: Hopefully we, yeah, we try. It’s really, uh, it follows my curiosity over the years from 3 million to mid twenties now. Uh, so it’s not very step by step, but it is, uh, it’ll be an interesting case study in a couple of years. Good or bad, like you’ll see the decisions that led to the whole thing, like in, you know, there’s videos on YouTube.
Wyatt Smith: Yeah, worth checking out, worth checking out. Well, John, I’m grateful to have you aboard. Thanks for being so generous with your time. [00:46:00] Thanks for sharing about your story, and I would encourage all of our listeners to go learn more about the Wilson companies and follow along on your journey.
John Wilson: Thanks for having me on, appreciate it.
Wyatt Smith: See you next time on Untapped with
Wyatt Smith: UpSmith.
